nevermind....

Slow,

It's not that simple nor linear, but I know you know that. Of course a company has to be a going concern, however the record has also been that hits labor has taken (or volunteered) when profits are down to help "save" the company are disproportionate with gains made when times are good. We keep giving far more than we get. They don't pass the profits on to us. You are just part of the latest generation of MEC that thinks that engaging management and being ready to kick them in the nuts are mutually exclusive.

Much of the ALPA is still in the BK negotiating mindset that we have to give something to get something. We will never get ahead like that, and need to transcend that way of negotiating.

Yes, the pie to slice up is only so big, but when management is making an intentionally smaller pie while the ingredients for another are in the kitchen we keep getting duped into going on a diet. Some want to look a little deeper in the pantry before making more donations to the management food bank.

On a personal note, I find your insulting of Watts, Carl, and the former NWA MEC beneath your position, even your internet alter ego. DALPA has done fairly well under LM in this merger, but I would advise not letting it go to your head. The battle continues in perpetuity, and I'll take NALPA's record against DALPA's any day.

True

False. But you type as the traditional labor whiner that thinks pandering and noise is a substitute for action. The fact that you want to reintroduce that ineffective mentality to our MEC troubles me.

That may be true where you're from. Not here.

This one astounds me. You think management in this industry intentionally loses money. I'm sure the 170 airline bankruptcies are all because of that reason, and the reason there isn't a solidly profitable airline anywhere is because all management is intentionally making the pie smaller.:rolleyes: Geez...

I have not insulted Watts. He's the guy you have to see to get your worksheets. Carl took the first shot at me (freshman, remember). Why do you tough guys get your panties in a wad when somebody doesn't sit down and take your blather? Oh, I'm glad you were proud of your former MEC's results. Good for you! But I'd prefer you not bring the dysfunction and mashed potato throwing to the new Delta.:D

Slow,

Yes, they do. It's been documented over and over on how management members are able to retain they're phat lifestyles by leading companies into bankruptcy and voiding labor contracts. They negotiate big personal percentages on HUGE savings to the board members and look like heroes. It went on / is going on everywhere.

Their futures were locked into stock options that were / are worth spit and they weren't about to go without.

Why do you think we all still talk about the sham bankruptcies of this decade?

There's only one airline bankruptcy this past decade that might look like a sham, and that was Hawaiian. Any other bankruptcy cost a lot of people real money (folks like Fidelity, Pratt and Whitney, Wells Fargo, etc.). In Delta's bankruptcy 400 million shares were wiped out. Those shareowners got zip, zero, nada. The bondholders were crushed. They were lucky to get 50 cents on the dollar. Ask the CVG airport board how their bonds look right now. Delta rejected those too. And the executives lost big time. Their non-qualified pension plan was rejected in the courts.

So I don't understand why you all still talk about the sham bankruptcies. Save one, there weren't any.

Whiner? So you are saying there is never a time to draw a line in the sand and not step over it in accommodation or appeasement? A strike is the last resort, and I'm encouraged that you have always found a way to avoid conflict. Has it yielded the best results though or just avoided conflict?

Not intentionally lose, but hide, shuffle, spend down in advance of earnings when it could be accounted for to show a profit that might be used as section 6 leverage by ALPA - absolutely!! Just because companies have failed does not mean this does not go on at ones that have not.

It is mistake to think that an MEC's job is to help make the Co. profitable, or to that we can't restore XYZ in section 6 because it will hurt their profitability. UAL would have been in trouble with or without $330/hr 744A's

No wads here, I'm just not as impressed with you as you are with yourself. Your approach is neither new or unique. It's hauntingly similar to the collaborative engagement approach that gave us 40% pay cuts and Compass. The only difference is it's the first time you've seen it from the inside:rolleyes:

I'm glad you are so good at witticisms and verbal sparring. I'll take results, and I was referring to a far broader historical snapshot than the last MEC of each side.

BTW I'm damn glad to be rid of our last N administration and like who we have in their now for the most part. I am also very concerned, as should you, at their attempted resurrection by proxy in the C20 elections.

Guys bashing each other and ripping apart each others pasts does nothing for the future. Lets argue the issues at hand, not the ones that cannot be changed in the past.

Like I state Slow, if the company has in a fact addressed my concerns in negotiations, and there is an understanding, it is in the negotiation notes etc, that is great. I have been asking about this for a few years and have never gotten a response. That type of information is communication. I like it.
There needs to be a ton more of it. The black out on information is awesome if you are a military intelligence officer, but not a union that in it design in bottom up.
We have a seat at the table with the company, but if it means blacking out most information to those you serve, what is the benefit? I know how that is important, but there has got to be some way that you can regularly inform pilots of issues that are arising before they show up in the form of an LOA.

CPS has been on the table for some time. The results should be of no surprise to anyone. The reps that I talked to told me they were going to vote this way. We had candid discussions on why this was a step back, but in the end they voted what they thought the conscience of the group was. I may not like the results, but it is what it is.
Fact is that I was actually surprised that it passed by only one vote. If I was National I would take note of that. Either way the recommendation will be given later this month. I DO see your concerns with the issue, but have you looked at the other ways to solve this? If so and this was still the answer, so be it. In the end flows are a cheap substitute for unity and owning more of our flying. In the end issues like this will stop popping up if we take back what we have sold at fire sale prices.
Before I get too far off topic, I want to address the concerns and fire laden e-mails I have been getting. The latest LOA regarding the NFL's has people in a tizzy. For what they represent, and for the fact that many feel it was one more agreement that the rank and file were not made aware of prior to the signing of them. I get that it is just "one more option" but, most see it as giving up the SIL's for a zero pay month. Why would guys be so upset about another option? IMHO it is minimally because of what it is, and more because they are sick of us agreeing to stuff in the dark, not being notified or at least given a hint that this was coming down the pike, and when it shows up on the door step, once again being told to Shut up because it is just A and not B.
Simple communications would have helped here. If we are working from a position that we have to have 100% blackout prior to the results, maybe we are isolating ourselves too much from those that our leaders represent.

I am sure you will tell me why this is not possible, but that does not change what people are thinking. Even if it is a improperly thought out thought, it needs to be addressed. These pilots need their opinion to be heard, and to have very candid discussions with the people that represent them. Many cannot make the LEC meetings. IMHO the simplest way to get the pulse, is make pilots do on-line surveys every few months. It should grade the results of the unions work, question their thinking on what the issues are, what their opinions are on issues, and what direction they want THEIR union to take. This will allow the leadership to know how they are doing with the "guys", and to see areas in which people need more information to make informed decisions.
There is a cost to this, but I see there being a bigger cost with not doing it. I see a lot of angry pilots. More angry then they have been even in 1113. That tells me that if nothing changes we are going to see results that many may not necessarily want, but the froth will be too big to stop.

All of this starts with a desire for unity, and doing whatever we have to do to get each and every pilot on board with that.

I find that the last exchange between you and Slow does a great deal to highlight the problem with this MEC's position: they are doing a reasonably good job, probably a better job than any MEC in recent times, but they are crossing the line from a bottom-up organization, to top-down organization. They also are taking an increasingly condescending tone in unofficial channels, and increasingly less effective through official channels. I'm not happy to see Slow come unglued and start talking about your underwear. You wear whatever you want. If you prefer something that doesn't chaffe, good for you.:cool:

And they appear less and less interested in membership input, prefering instead to preach that only they have sufficient facts to decide on our behalf. This is a worrysome trend, to be sure.

That being said, I find your statement above to be equally troubling. While I think the NW pilots have a beautiful reputation for being aggressive, this aggression has not translated into results. I don't see much in NW's record that I envy, or want to emulate. And I have zero interest in seeing this type of MEC infighting. When you continue this "battle", "in perpetuity", you're going against all Delta pilots. Please tell me how we can use the pitbull in the NW group, and mix it with the shepperd in Delta to make something more clever, more aggressive, and more effective. Something new. Something that gets my money back into my wallet.

Because I don't care about the NW record. I care about Delta's future record. If that record is distinguished because the NW pilot help the group become stronger, so much the better.

I hadn't seen this. Makes more sense now...

Sink, that is a good point, I have stated it many times. Yes, we have our differences of past action but quite looking at issues in your rear view mirror. We need to be forward looking and weigh each decision on what MIGHT happen three to six years down the road.

As for the NWALPA side, I think that what we will gain is a loud BS meter. Contrary to what everyone thinks, those guys can work together on issues, just look at the CPS representational structure vote.