Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-24-2014 | 03:36 PM
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Slow
I freely admit I don't remember the exact numbers, but I was a 757 captain in 2000 and at the peak $256 and change. Time and a half overtime.
If I am wrong please post the NWA pay charts here. What were you flying in 2000? And what did it pay?
I don't see any point to your posts other than to lower expectations. It's the ALPA way.
I freely admit I don't remember the exact numbers, but I was a 757 captain in 2000 and at the peak $256 and change. Time and a half overtime.
If I am wrong please post the NWA pay charts here. What were you flying in 2000? And what did it pay?
I don't see any point to your posts other than to lower expectations. It's the ALPA way.
05-24-2014 | 03:51 PM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
05-24-2014 | 03:53 PM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Now the whole CDO is being blamed on some "rogue north pilots" by some here. And yet the company "couldn't care less about CDO's". Why did we need to give up another hour on long call to take something back the company was supposedly not interested in to begin with?
The process at ALPA is broken. Not for logistic or monetary reasons. It is my belief they don't set up an efficient process to let the membership get more involved because they (the MEC) do not want to give up control. I believe management also does not want the union to give up their ability to make unilateral decisions. It certainly works to their advantage.
It's interesting to watch the "group think" and top down managerial philosophy indoctrinated into all who join the upper representation. Politics are rampant with many focusing on upward advancement while trying to align with those they feel will take them the furthest. They are taught that "line pilots" are unsophisticated thinkers incapable of understanding how important a tight knit liaison with management is in getting things done. Therefore the secrecy and control. Unfortunately this personalized relationship with management can cause loyalty issues for fear of offending the high powered friends they have become so close to.
It would be relatively easy to use the various electronic means available today to involve pilots through polling, live Q and A, vetting, voting, etc at a very reasonable cost. A lot of guys would take the time to weigh in. Make it easy instead of layering barriers to entry with antiquated policy/protocol.
We preach CRM in the cockpit but our union is not interested in creating the structure to best utilize CRM with regard to communication, contract/TA's, work rules, side letters, compensation, etc. And then they feign disappointment and confusion when there is an uproar as we just saw. And yet nothing ever changes. No lessons learned. No protocol changed. They continue in their divisive ways. They keep tight fisted on control and we keep making the same dumb mistakes, divided as ever. You have to laugh when unity is preached, while very little is put into place to achieve it.
The process at ALPA is broken. Not for logistic or monetary reasons. It is my belief they don't set up an efficient process to let the membership get more involved because they (the MEC) do not want to give up control. I believe management also does not want the union to give up their ability to make unilateral decisions. It certainly works to their advantage.
It's interesting to watch the "group think" and top down managerial philosophy indoctrinated into all who join the upper representation. Politics are rampant with many focusing on upward advancement while trying to align with those they feel will take them the furthest. They are taught that "line pilots" are unsophisticated thinkers incapable of understanding how important a tight knit liaison with management is in getting things done. Therefore the secrecy and control. Unfortunately this personalized relationship with management can cause loyalty issues for fear of offending the high powered friends they have become so close to.
It would be relatively easy to use the various electronic means available today to involve pilots through polling, live Q and A, vetting, voting, etc at a very reasonable cost. A lot of guys would take the time to weigh in. Make it easy instead of layering barriers to entry with antiquated policy/protocol.
We preach CRM in the cockpit but our union is not interested in creating the structure to best utilize CRM with regard to communication, contract/TA's, work rules, side letters, compensation, etc. And then they feign disappointment and confusion when there is an uproar as we just saw. And yet nothing ever changes. No lessons learned. No protocol changed. They continue in their divisive ways. They keep tight fisted on control and we keep making the same dumb mistakes, divided as ever. You have to laugh when unity is preached, while very little is put into place to achieve it.
Carl
05-24-2014 | 04:00 PM
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From: Left, left, left right left....
I missed this post in the page change. Your search-fu is weak, Fly. Log in to the website and use this link It is still posted.
The reasons for the failure were posted by the "new" C20 officers (Tucker/Rizutto/Massey) after their first MEC meeting:
Reinstatement of Illegals
Fails-Conflicts with PWA section 12.D.1 and 12.Q. Pending NPRM Flight-Duty
It looks like your council officers kept you up to date. Surprising that you didn't remember something that has become so contentious
The usual suspects? Not quite the way you envisioned, eh?
The reasons for the failure were posted by the "new" C20 officers (Tucker/Rizutto/Massey) after their first MEC meeting:
Reinstatement of Illegals
Fails-Conflicts with PWA section 12.D.1 and 12.Q. Pending NPRM Flight-Duty
It looks like your council officers kept you up to date. Surprising that you didn't remember something that has become so contentious
The usual suspects? Not quite the way you envisioned, eh?
If it was direction, as opposed to NC originated, then it had to be the will of the body as a majority, in which case the MEC owns it.
I sort of doubt they just all of a sudden decided to resurrect the issue and vote as a majority to include it the TA out of respect for a 4 year old C20 resolution
I guess C20 only gets the credit when it's unpopular or when looking for political cover. Too bad the direction and discussion was in executive session and not public or I doubt you'd be getting away with the state sponsored slime.
Also too bad that Scrappies amazing powers of engagement with the company and the ability to negotiate last minute changes on the fly weren't put to use back in the C2012 TA.
Last edited by Fly4hire; 05-24-2014 at 04:10 PM.
05-24-2014 | 04:07 PM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Soooo, a 4 year old, failed resolution made it onto the negotiating committee's plate exactly how? Doesn't stuff that goes to the committee require a majority of the MEC to sign off on it before it actually gets negotiated?
Besides, given the track record of success that C20 has in getting things their way on the MEC, the idea of them actually succeeding getting this to the table if even a couple of other councils were against it is laughable.
I spoke to my reps on this...did anyone else bother to ask them? They had no idea there even was a resolution for this in the past (why would they? It went and failed three years before they were in even in office). It wasn't even at the bottom yof their list of issues, so to somehow tie them to the magical appearance of SDPs, obliquely or otherwise, is highly questionable. The FO rep said he flew "illegals" at NWA (as did I), and he told me he was HIGHLY allergic to them, and would never vote in favor of something he wouldn't do himself.
If you guys want to know where they came from, I would suggest an email or phone call to the Negotiating Committee. Their addresses are on the committee page of the ALPA MEC site (under the "committee" pull down menu). You can also reach them by phone by calling the MEC office. It's a "standing committee", which means they're there M-F (except holidays).
Certainly SDPs didn't simply manifest out of thin air, so they should know all about it. The "new" committee isn't the same as the people who negotiated this, but they should have the info.
Nu
Besides, given the track record of success that C20 has in getting things their way on the MEC, the idea of them actually succeeding getting this to the table if even a couple of other councils were against it is laughable.
I spoke to my reps on this...did anyone else bother to ask them? They had no idea there even was a resolution for this in the past (why would they? It went and failed three years before they were in even in office). It wasn't even at the bottom yof their list of issues, so to somehow tie them to the magical appearance of SDPs, obliquely or otherwise, is highly questionable. The FO rep said he flew "illegals" at NWA (as did I), and he told me he was HIGHLY allergic to them, and would never vote in favor of something he wouldn't do himself.
If you guys want to know where they came from, I would suggest an email or phone call to the Negotiating Committee. Their addresses are on the committee page of the ALPA MEC site (under the "committee" pull down menu). You can also reach them by phone by calling the MEC office. It's a "standing committee", which means they're there M-F (except holidays).
Certainly SDPs didn't simply manifest out of thin air, so they should know all about it. The "new" committee isn't the same as the people who negotiated this, but they should have the info.
Nu
I am very glad they voted for MEMRAT however.
What's your take on points of learning here? Did we learn anything? Or are we as totally dysfunctional as we were when Roberts was recalled?
Carl
05-24-2014 | 04:13 PM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
05-24-2014 | 04:23 PM
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From: Left, left, left right left....
Carl,
Reread carefully the quoted C1 update:
This does not infer that direction was given to pursue CDO's, but what they received was different than briefed. Remember NC direction takes place in Executive session and cannot be directly discussed. I read the C1 update as a sideways way of saying that direction was not given to pursue CDO's or was significantly different than what they were briefed on. The NC can suggest courses of action for MEC approval without waiting for direction to come up with ideas. The same ambiguity is being spun to suggest that direction to pursue CDO's was given. I don't read it that way.
I suggest you call the C1 and your own Reps, and was as suggested, the NC directly.
Reread carefully the quoted C1 update:
"The tentative agreement reached last week by the negotiators met the direction the MEC had provided to them over the course of multiple meetings, including a “mid-course adjustment” two months ago. During the 7-day review period required by the MEC Policy Manual, it became apparent that the modeling and assumptions regarding Split Duty Period (SDP) flying (aka “CDOs”, “Illegals”, “Stand-ups”) was not what we envisioned when we gave direction to the negotiating committee several months ago. Also, your feedback during the last week solidified our view that the addition of SDPs was not in the best interest of Delta pilots. It’s important to note that the 7-day review period was established to allow exactly this type of reassessment."
I suggest you call the C1 and your own Reps, and was as suggested, the NC directly.
05-24-2014 | 04:34 PM
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I was referring to when the MEC had it for a week before they eventually got the votes to pass it on for MEMRAT.
05-24-2014 | 04:53 PM
Can't abide NAI
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
While we were arguing the inane and inconsequential, a US Marine who had his leg blown off won Lime Rock today 
Happy Memorial Day!
Happy Memorial Day!
05-24-2014 | 04:53 PM
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From: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Now the whole CDO is being blamed on some "rogue north pilots" by some here. And yet the company "couldn't care less about CDO's". Why did we need to give up another hour on long call to take something back the company was supposedly not interested in to begin with?
The process at ALPA is broken. Not for logistic or monetary reasons. It is my belief they don't set up an efficient process to let the membership get more involved because they (the MEC) do not want to give up control. I believe management also does not want the union to give up their ability to make unilateral decisions. It certainly works to their advantage.
It's interesting to watch the "group think" and top down managerial philosophy indoctrinated into all who join the upper representation. Politics are rampant with many focusing on upward advancement while trying to align with those they feel will take them the furthest. They are taught that "line pilots" are unsophisticated thinkers incapable of understanding how important a tight knit liaison with management is in getting things done. Therefore the secrecy and control. Unfortunately this personalized relationship with management can cause loyalty issues for fear of offending the high powered friends they have become so close to.
It would be relatively easy to use the various electronic means available today to involve pilots through polling, live Q and A, vetting, voting, etc at a very reasonable cost. A lot of guys would take the time to weigh in. Make it easy instead of layering barriers to entry with antiquated policy/protocol.
We preach CRM in the cockpit but our union is not interested in creating the structure to best utilize CRM with regard to communication, contract/TA's, work rules, side letters, compensation, etc. And then they feign disappointment and confusion when there is an uproar as we just saw. And yet nothing ever changes. No lessons learned. No protocol changed. They continue in their divisive ways. They keep tight fisted on control and we keep making the same dumb mistakes, divided as ever. You have to laugh when unity is preached, while very little is put into place to achieve it.
The process at ALPA is broken. Not for logistic or monetary reasons. It is my belief they don't set up an efficient process to let the membership get more involved because they (the MEC) do not want to give up control. I believe management also does not want the union to give up their ability to make unilateral decisions. It certainly works to their advantage.
It's interesting to watch the "group think" and top down managerial philosophy indoctrinated into all who join the upper representation. Politics are rampant with many focusing on upward advancement while trying to align with those they feel will take them the furthest. They are taught that "line pilots" are unsophisticated thinkers incapable of understanding how important a tight knit liaison with management is in getting things done. Therefore the secrecy and control. Unfortunately this personalized relationship with management can cause loyalty issues for fear of offending the high powered friends they have become so close to.
It would be relatively easy to use the various electronic means available today to involve pilots through polling, live Q and A, vetting, voting, etc at a very reasonable cost. A lot of guys would take the time to weigh in. Make it easy instead of layering barriers to entry with antiquated policy/protocol.
We preach CRM in the cockpit but our union is not interested in creating the structure to best utilize CRM with regard to communication, contract/TA's, work rules, side letters, compensation, etc. And then they feign disappointment and confusion when there is an uproar as we just saw. And yet nothing ever changes. No lessons learned. No protocol changed. They continue in their divisive ways. They keep tight fisted on control and we keep making the same dumb mistakes, divided as ever. You have to laugh when unity is preached, while very little is put into place to achieve it.
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