Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-15-2014, 05:01 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,012
The thing about fatigue is that it is insidious. The other pilot might not realize they are impaired to the degree that they are.
Studies show flying drunk is less dangerous than flying fatigued. How many would watch a crew member pound about six in a bar before walking to the gate?
06-15-2014, 05:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Happy Father's Day to all the Dads! Hope we all have at least some time to enjoy with the kiddos!
06-15-2014, 05:17 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: A350
Posts: 629
I didn't want to extend. I told my captain. He said I had no reason not to extend as it was his leg and we were only going over by about 18 minutes (ended up only being :11) so I took the path of least resistance. The release we signed had an earlier departure time. They pushed our time back twice waiting for pax. I signed the release before I knew were going into our extension. I told the captain this is not legal per FARs. He called crew tracking who told him it was. Captain then disagreed with me. I stopped arguing and just flew flight. I feel we have an illegal and broken system. That is why I am posting this. I feel we should have been given a new release. I honestly felt like refusing the extension would have been way more hassle than it was worth. If my own captain is against me, then I figure everyone's against me.
My offense is that you failed to man up and then you come here and whine about it being everyone's else fault. It is your fault. Live with the decisions you make. It is called being professional.
06-15-2014, 05:22 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Sadly, I'm not joking.
06-15-2014, 05:24 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
One of my kids (25yrs. old, still in college on the 8 year plan) called me a few days ago and she said, "Hey dad, can you send me some money so I can buy you something nice for Father's Day?"
At least my dog got me some Sam Adams Rebel IPA!
Man's best friend!
06-15-2014, 05:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,953
06-15-2014, 05:33 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,386
This bears re-posting
Check, you are not missing anything. The "automatic extension" policy is contrary to the FAA's interpretation of 117. If you sign the release before knowing about an extension, that signature does NOT mean that you approve any subsequent extension - no matter what the company says. You can only approve an extension AFTER you know about it.
Check, you are not missing anything. The "automatic extension" policy is contrary to the FAA's interpretation of 117. If you sign the release before knowing about an extension, that signature does NOT mean that you approve any subsequent extension - no matter what the company says. You can only approve an extension AFTER you know about it.
I believe the company has not made a change in policy because it always made it clear the concurrence could be revoke at any time. In the FAA interpretation the option to revoke was not there. Again however it makes no real difference.
06-15-2014, 05:52 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,299
I've said it many times before but it seems appropriate to repeat right now ----
It is impossible to understate the ENORMOUS "productivity/efficiency" concession we made in C2012 when we agreed to make July and August into 30 day months.
That little gem cost us an untold number of jobs and saved the company mega millions.
It is impossible to understate the ENORMOUS "productivity/efficiency" concession we made in C2012 when we agreed to make July and August into 30 day months.
That little gem cost us an untold number of jobs and saved the company mega millions.
Sounds like a very precise number. Almost as precise as the 125 jobs that we were specifically told C2012 would cost. At an average of maybe $200K plus benefits, that's probably around $32.5M per year.
May one assume that's what you meant by mega?
06-15-2014, 06:04 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
On the topic of HP 44's extension, I'm under the impression that the problem in 117 is the the PIC (not the individual pilot) makes the call as to fitness, which leaves the fatigue call as the only "approved" option to refuse the flight.
I don't know if Delta's pre-extension policy is legal, and I strongly object to it, but it was policy, and you can see how it combined with the FAR language to make the crew find that the path to least resistance went through the air. I heard other discussions, where first officers went along with Captains that were only interested in their own fitness. Fortunately, on a day where many of these discussions took place, I was flying with an APC regular, who consulted with me first, and simply called sched to tell them we weren't extending. EOS.
Enter the latest LOA...
The new language requires concurrence by both pilots to extend. It's more restrictive than 117, and it removes the extra pressure on the FO. So if HP 44's story occurs before the effective date of that change in the LOA, it highlights a benefit gained. If the story takes place afterwards, he needs to study his contract more.
I don't know if Delta's pre-extension policy is legal, and I strongly object to it, but it was policy, and you can see how it combined with the FAR language to make the crew find that the path to least resistance went through the air. I heard other discussions, where first officers went along with Captains that were only interested in their own fitness. Fortunately, on a day where many of these discussions took place, I was flying with an APC regular, who consulted with me first, and simply called sched to tell them we weren't extending. EOS.
Enter the latest LOA...
The new language requires concurrence by both pilots to extend. It's more restrictive than 117, and it removes the extra pressure on the FO. So if HP 44's story occurs before the effective date of that change in the LOA, it highlights a benefit gained. If the story takes place afterwards, he needs to study his contract more.
06-15-2014, 06:15 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,728
Here's an idea: When you sign the release, also write at the bottom, "I will NOT extend past..." and enter your own personal drop dead time.
Then send and ACARS msg to the Disp. with the same drop dead time, as you are taxiing around JFK for an hour. You might put in a hotel request too, just to get him to pay attention!
Then send and ACARS msg to the Disp. with the same drop dead time, as you are taxiing around JFK for an hour. You might put in a hotel request too, just to get him to pay attention!
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