Carl;

You know better. It had nothing to do with "didn't want."

I am sure your consulting business does business in Europe and you have some working knowledge of the EU laws, and because of this, you know that their collective agreements are not public record like ours. I am sure you also know what the France tax rate is on the AF pilots and what their social benefits are in retirement. All of this said, you also know that DALPA would have loved to get that information out, but for the AF pilots to disclose any of it, it had to be agreed upon that we would not detail it in a contract history or comparison.

The simple fact is when looking at total W-2, v take home pay, v negotiated benefits, v their socialized benefits in retirement, and then comparing theirs to ours, there are area we are better in and areas they are better in. I would not classify us as equals but the differences are noted.

Virgin would qualify for EX-IM.......

Union criticism has been an integral part of this thread for a long time.
ALPA guys coming around to defend the union is also traditional.
I think the debate has been tremendously useful and informative over the years.

The recent exchanges however, have been something different.

A lot of people have enjoyed this thread for a long time. You guys are endangering that.

Please stop.

If you are a "mindless parrot" we are all in deep trouble. :eek:

Well reasoned debate is good. Emotional debate does not produce results. We can debate the merits of any decision and will always have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Civility is the key to success and the best ideas not personalities coming to the top.

Well, Delta's in for half of that alter ego called Air France and violating our production balance; their pay is relevant in as much as we must negotiate below them to avoid having our flying transferred in the absence of enforceable scope. (or alternatively we again cash out another scope violation to the applause of those with a very short time horizon).

However, while that half is bothersome, there is another half we need to consider as well.

+1

We need to stop the repetitive and personal battles.
Maybe we need yet another thread for the "Yes you are!" - "No I'm not!" group.

Those kind of posts do not advance the debate and are just plain annoying.

I completely understand pattern bargaining. Apparently, much more than many on here have demonstrated. Case in point the many posters that have held up the APA (and now SWAPA) as having done something wonderful. Yes, they (APA) FINALLY achieved something, but it took years to get to where we are. Their losses in the process are very real, and pattern bargaining is worthless if you discount TVM. Sorry. It's just math. And this IS about APA/DPA/SWAPA/dALPA. Which of those groups has delivered more to its' members? More importantly, which will deliver more going forward?

We'll do our part in raising the bar. (unless of course the hard liners are successful in torpedoing the process for years and years). The other thing is re: the RFP, we won't see any of those airplanes for at least another contract. Not that I am interested in setting any rates lower than what the gods at APA have achieved, but those airplanes are in the future, and at this point are as real as a 380 order. I have zero worries that their contract will be bettered. Zero.

Have fun....

Having offline for a few days, I have to ax a question.

Carl.

Are you this paranoid in your real life?

What the hell is the point of this post? Just another mindless dig, or are you trying to say something?