You just can't stop, can you? I'm trying to end our constant bickering by simply saying that we have different points of view. Can't we just leave it at that? I thought you said you were done arguing with me.

Are you even capable of anything other than a straw man argument? Nobody has said or even inferred that you've ever written things to tear down the union. You just tear down those that call you on your revisionist history.

No, Carl's assertion is that you did undermine the MEC and that you were removed from your committee position when the reps removed your benefactor O'Malley.

I'll bet you were. It must have been very tiring to have been so duplicitous for so long.

It's no assumption. You and the others were quickly removed. Kingsley made the terrible mistake of keeping a few holdovers as an olive branch, not realizing what serious back stabbing was about to come.

Another straw man. Nobody ever said you criticized what was going on here. You did your criticism and undermining out of view of the undermined.

Funny that someone who can only debate via a straw man argument calls me a propagandist. The fact that you need straw men only highlights how weak you are at debating. Everything I say here is "held to account" by you and all the others on full flight pay loss and the other hangers on. You on the other hand are only used to debate within the echo chamber and marginalizing anyone that has a different thought. Outside the echo chamber, that type of silliness doesn't work and you just look weak and feckless.

Carl

FOR GAWD'S SAKE, CAN YA'ALL JUST STOP!

Carl, I love ya dearly man, but I just fast forwarded through 5 or 6 pages of you and the ALPA nitwits duking it out over stuff that has and never will be settled. Trust me, it's you and about 3 guys vs about 3 or 4 ALPA guys.........no one else is reading it. If you haven't noticed, the participation around here is almost nil.

Here's my suggestion..........start a new thread! Call it "Latest and Worse of DALPA" or something like that.

Or, and this is my preference, tell a joke, tell a flying story or two, post some cheerleader picks (remember when you used to do that?)

Look guys, we have a bunch of new guys coming that will need "how to" help just like us NWA guys did a few years ago. We need to clear the decks for that.

JMHO,
Ferd

You do know that APA still has their full pensions, right?

Carl

When will you realize that in our capitalist system that ALL profits, are by definition, the property of the shareholders?

You are correct. However, you seem to have forgotten that it is a rather difficult proposition to wrest those profits from the company (or more accurately, add expense to the company in the form of more $$ for the pilots, thereby reducing profits).

I am all in favor of that. That is what negotiating is all about. However you seem to hold the negotiators in extreme disdain, with no regard for the work they put in to get as much $$ as they can for the pilot group.

And if you had any doubt about what capitalism is about, reference an earlier post I made. Microsoft had $54 billion in cash a few years ago, just sitting there drawing meager interest. They got rid of all of it via a special dividend and stock buyback. None of that went to the employees. I am not saying that that is a good thing, but I bring it up when a pilot post something like "DAL has so much money they end up giving to the shareholders." That is what ALL for-profit entities end up doing with "extra money." It is our negotiators job to get a lot of that for the pilots "in advance." But you seem to dismiss their efforts.


Like it or hate it, that is the very definition of a for-profit entity. The company "returning" profits to the shareholders via dividend or stock buyback is just a way of allocating what is already theirs via a different vehicle (versus paying down debt, investing in infrastructure, investing in employees, etc).

Seems like you are the one with a knowledge gap. Did you ever take a basic (non-socialist) economics class?

Will you acknowledge that we already have restored and even improved upon many, many work rules?

We have had three "eras" regarding work rules at DAL-S. The first was the pre-BK era. This included great work rules such as a lot of the scams with line of time bidding, getting paid to not work, taking one week of vacation (in a system where senior guys got up to 7 weeks) and turning into three weeks off, etc. However, for reserves, those "good ol' days" absolutely sucked. We also did not even have the jumpseat for ourselves, much less anyone else, until 1996 (and we bought that with a concessionary contract).

The worst was the pre-BK and post-BK/pre-merger DAL from 2004-2008. Our work rules were eviscerated and just sucked all around.

Since the merger, several LOAs, Scheduling Optimization Team 2, the JPWA, C2012, and the recent 117 LOA, our work rules have gotten very, very good. I will detail how.


In fact our work rules now are far better than they were in C2K. (Unless that is you liked the era where reserves could fly a 2-day trip that paid as little as 4 hours for a trip that paid a regular pilot 10.30, and you liked it that the company and not the pilot, scheduled your CQ sims, and where every vacation started on Sunday, because by golly that's how we always did it. I could go on but you get the idea).

Well since I have a better knowledge than you do about PMDL history work rules, let me weigh in, though you probably won't acknowledge any of it.

Even in the "good ol' days" reserve sucked until C2K, and the further back in history you go the worse it was. When I got hired in early 97, for your first day on call, EVERY reserve was on automatic short call at 0300, every time, no exceptions. Up until the 80s reserve was perpetual short call 24/7 for the entire duration of your on call days! How about that? You can have those "good ol' days."

Since reserves have never gotten the Duty Period Average (or it's PMDL preceding concept called Variable Minimum (VM)), and have only been guaranteed the Duty Period Minimum of 2 hours a day (as well as duty and trip rigs), you could and often did see a situation where you would have a pop up trip, fly one leg ATL-MCO, layover, fly MCO-ATL. That trip would pay a regular lineholder 10.30 and the reserve four hours. Now with our recent LOA, effective in November that trip will pay both pilots the same 10.30.

The Average Daily Guarantee also applies to a dh-only duty period, another first. We have never had that before in any era, as far as I know--it is another huge improvement. No more four-day trips paying 18 hours!

We never had Vacation Slide. That was a wonderful provision that you North guys brought over. And in another huge DALPA win, we took your original concept where you could slide the vacation +/- 3 days, and improved it such that a pilot can slide a vacation any time in the entire month. In fact I slid vacation this month of July back six days, and it worked out perfectly.

We never had bidding for CQ. Under the "great" work rules we used to have, the company, and not the pilot scheduled your CQ sim. Why? Now you can use your seniority to bid for the CQ schedule that works for you. While nothing is guaranteed depending on seniority, it sure beats the system that gives you back to back A period sims the two days after Christmas, in the 86th and 87th day of a 90 day window, when you are in the top third of your category--which if you haven't guessed, is exactly what happened to me the last time we had the old way of CQ scheduling--not a darn thing I could do about it either.

Not everything is better now. Under our pre-BK Line of Time system, there were some tricks you could use to really get some good deals. I acknowledge that. Nothing is ever so concrete that this era or that era was always 100% better than another. However, I think that ever since the merger, DALPA has done a great job of improving our contract, one modest improvement at a time. But those modest improvements are becoming increasingly large in number, and compounded on top of each other, they represent a significant positive change to our contract.

You can honestly disagree, and I respect that. I don't respect, however, calling our reps who work hard on our behalf, names or derogatory terms.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Long time lurker, brand new Delta Pilot. I read this thread almost daily for bits of information and all I read is C2012 this, ALPA that, and DPA over there.

I am not the only new guy lurking either...and we are all looking for guidance. Or at least some great rumors to impress our Captains with so we get a positive review!

Two's in! Agreed!

Not at all. The quote marks around the word leader means they hold a position of leadership but are acting either out of self interest or as lap dogs for management.

Led us through to where we are now of not being close to our pay rates of ten years ago...while helping to keep alive the RJ experiment...while our company is so historically profitable that they're throwing money back to shareholders...and all other employees are back to their old wages?

The only way to ever get better is to accurately portray how far we've fallen and how far we have yet to climb. I offer solutions all the time. They're always ignored or demeaned by the DALPA flight pay loss regime.

Carl

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/me...pa-2016-ca.jpg
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/me...al-2016-ca.jpg
Picture uploading isn't easy, but here they are. You can pull the DAL data yourself.

"So follow here"....
Jan. 1, 2016:
UAL WB band pays $270.25 (based on 104 airframes in AA Group IV)
The DAL 777 pays $270.25
DAL 330/765 pays $255.28
DAL 330/777 blend is $258.98 (based on 73 airframes in AA Group IV)
AMR Group IV shows $226.06 (but they increase with the weighted average)

The weighted average:
((270.25 * 104)+(258.98 * 73)) / 177
((28,106) + (18,905.54)) / 177
47,011.54 /177
$265.60 per hour weighted average for 12yr AA Group IV CA in 2016

So in the end, in 2016 absent an improved DAL PWA, the AA pilots will have a pay rate roughly $5.00 less than their DAL counterparts on the 777 and roughly $3.00 more than their DAL counterparts on the A330.

I originally posted $262.67. I was off by less than $5 on either side.

Seriously, please stop posting the lie. You never showed a drop of math or a contractual reference, and you never will because it doesn't exist.

Not so much. It's been frozen and replaced by a 16% DC plan.