gzsg

Management is returning billions to the shareholders.

They can restore our pay plus inflation.

alfaromeo

I guess you would have figured out that since I don't know who it is, there is no way I could answer the question.

But, of course you are setting up a false dilemma. What you are arguing is that if this guy ever had even a shred of connection with ALPA, then ALPA is responsible for this hacking.

Tomorrow I will be driving to work. Let's say I am speeding on the highway and crash into a station wagon full of nuns and give them all whiplash. I am going to work at Delta, wearing my Delta uniform, in a car paid for by money made from Delta Air Lines.

Now, does Delta Air Lines, or Richard Anderson, or my Chief Pilot have anything to do with this accident? Please answer that yes or no.

Once again, I deny there was any hacking involved whatsoever, I saw the dump from the DNS entries and DPA or someone else screwed them up. It's not a big deal, but they should just own up to it and let the matter go. But in order to answer your question, we have to assume some hacking actually took place; so once again let's ride the crazy train.

It is immaterial if this guy had some connection to ALPA at some point in his life. Just because he ever did ALPA work does not mean ALPA sanctioned or would ever sanction this type of behavior. Since you have no case and there is no "scandal" you are trying to invent one out of thin air. The argument is that if this guy was ever connected with ALPA then ALPA is responsible.

This is a silly argument and one which normal people will see through in an instant. I can see how the DPA faithful will be rallied to chuck out some more money to their attorney, but everyone that thinks can understand that doing ALPA work does not make you an agent of ALPA for every private action you take. ALPA has a leadership structure and if ALPA ordered this action (which didn't take place) then ALPA is responsible. If this guy had some connection to ALPA and took action on his own free time then ALPA has no responsibility.

Once again, lacking ESP, I have no idea who this person is and I don't ever want to know. I simply don't understand how you can't grasp the fact that I don't know who this is so therefore I can't answer any questions about him. Is that plain enough for you? Yes or No.

finis72

Guess I'm with you Carl, think I'll get it on my retirement flight instead of a signed picture ?

Alan Shore

No, but neither would I have though 9/11 would happen, or that the bottom would so fall out of the country, its economy, and our industry as it did in the early 2000's.

Agreed. But my statement was simply a response to your characterization of that 3-year period as making only a tiny dent.

I disagree that they "predetermined" anything or that they have a defeatist attitude and lack of proper respect for our value. My sense is that they have carefully and thoroughly analyzed each set of circumstances and crafted what they believed was the strategy that would deliver us the greatest overall value, considering both amount and timeframe.

We can agree to disagree with their conclusions, but I am firmly convinced that your view of their disposition is flat out wrong.

Alan Shore

Yes, they can. The question is, how do we convince them to do so?

TeddyKGB

It's easier said then done. Delta can't just magically pull $3 per passenger out of thin air. If they could, they would, and our profits would be even larger. Deltas main obligation is to the share holders, not the pilots. I'm all for getting the biggest raises we can but full restoration is not going to happen. Continued pattern bargaining is what is going to happen and that you can bank on 88. How do you expect a radical change to our PWA when it's mostly industry leading already?

Alan Shore

So your assertion is that RA is deliberately preventing Delta from making too much money? Really?

Agreed. DAL88's point was that it's as simple as raising fares by $3 per ticket. My point was that it's not quite that simple.

Whatever.

alfaromeo

They sure spent a lot of money and collected a lot of dues for having no goals. Couldn't they have just had a yearly meeting and played dominoes if all they wanted to do was not make contract improvements. What they wanted was to negotiate a new seniority list based on Date of Hire and they failed. In that failure they cost their pilots billions of dollars. It is just amazing how the webboard folks can dismiss this type of failure while attacking DALPA as a failure. Sometimes you guys have shifting standards of success that have no consistent basis, just whatever confirms your own bias. If DALPA merely says their goals are exactly what happened then they are successes in your mind. How convenient.

USAPA has NOT abrogated an arbitration. They have delayed it. I know the webbboard lawyers are celebrating their temporary delays as some victory, but they are coming to a close. USAPA will soon not represent anyone in anything. They signed away their right to represent in the MOU and soon APA will represent the entire pilot group.

The APA has stated openly that they will not take on the DFR liabilities of USAPA. That means that there will be three separate merger committees, East, West, and APA. Actually, AMR management is also a party to the proceedings and they have openly stated that they will not take on the DFR liabilities of USAPA. The Allegheny/Mohawk LPP's dictate that all disputes amongst the parties will be solved by final and binding arbitration.

Therefore, my guess is the first dispute is what list will be integrated in with the American list. That dispute will be solved by an arbitrator (or panel of arbitrators) and they will decide whether or not the previous arbitration has been abrogated by USAPA's delays. My guess is that the East pilots will not be happy with that arbitration.

All complicated cases like this go their own way so there may be some other solution. In the end, the West pilots have their rights. As one of the federal judges said, a neutral arbitration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Therefore, whatever happens to the West pilots will be judged on the basis of what their rights were under the Nicolau award. If the Nicolau award is not used, then the West pilots will have to have seniority as good or better than the Nicolau award or someone will have to pay them money.

As I said before, neither the APA nor AMR management want to be writing those checks, so USAPA has merely delayed the arbitration, they have abrogated nothing. USAPA can't negotiate away the West's pilots rights no matter how much internet blather they spew. Delay is not victory. Instead, they just flushed away billions of dollars they will never get back. WINNING!!!!!!!!!

alfaromeo

So, it's better to lose half and then get nothing back? That's the part you and your ilk leave out. While we were getting 60% back the rest of the world was getting 0; and we are the idiots? Got it.

DAL 88 Driver

Exactly. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Management needs to cover dramatically increased fuel costs, they invent $25 bag fees. Management needs to cover dramatically increased pilot costs... well... They don't need to do that because they have DALPA running interference for them.