Airline Pilot Central Forums - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?

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- - Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta1067 (Post 1708805)

It's easier said then done. Delta can't just magically pull $3 per passenger out of thin air. If they could, they would, and our profits would be even larger. Deltas main obligation is to the share holders, not the pilots. I'm all for getting the biggest raises we can but full restoration is not going to happen. Continued pattern bargaining is what is going to happen and that you can bank on 88. How do you expect a radical change to our PWA when it's mostly industry leading already?

Of course it isn't easy. If it were, why would we pay dues to a union? But like any leading performer, in any line of work, it starts with asking. Are we at least planning to do that? Or is DALPA just going to phone this one in too, paying for tiny raises with more onerous give aways and concessions? Then turn to the membership and say "Well guys, this is the best we could do, you'd better take it or face destruction and mayhem."

I agree it's going to be a challenge. I think we're up for one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1708809)

So, it's better to lose half and then get nothing back? That's the part you and your ilk leave out. While we were getting 60% back the rest of the world was getting 0; and we are the idiots? Got it.

You are an idiot because you were so easily able to write off half the value of our profession without even attempting to fight for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1708820)

How can I get ilk?

Very envious. :(

Seems that you already have it! :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyallnite (Post 1708821)

...it starts with asking. Are we at least planning to do that?

The answer I get from my reps is a resounding yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyallnite (Post 1708821)

Or is DALPA just going to phone this one in too, paying for tiny raises with more onerous give aways and concessions?

I don't agree for a minute that that's what happened last time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyallnite (Post 1708821)

I agree it's going to be a challenge. I think we're up for one.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1708825)

The answer I get from my reps is a resounding yes.

I don't agree for a minute that that's what happened last time.

And therein lies the problem, Alan. Your idea of "asking for it" seems to be along the lines of C2012.

Quote:

Originally Posted by index (Post 1708768)

First of all, there is no "if I'm released at noon"---you ARE released at noon automatically prior to a hard no fly day.

Second, you could accept a GS at 1300, but your report could not be earlier than 2300, thus giving you 10 hours "rest" prior to report.

You could also get a "less than 12 hr GS" prior to noon today, provided that the report is between 10:00 and 11:59 to report.

Couldn't the less than 12 GS be any time today? I realize that we are released at noon automatically prior to a hard no-fly day, but I take that to mean if nothing is on your schedule by noon. They can always assign you a that reports after noon as long as it is on your schedule NLT noon.

Noon prior to a hard no-fly day is a release time not a NLT duty time.

Or am I totally screwed up on this as usual? :confused:

Scoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1708806)

So your assertion is that RA is deliberately preventing Delta from making too much money? Really?

Yes, really. As I said, it's a compromise. Our management could get away with increases in fares and fees while cutting or freezing wages. But they would risk the ire of populist politicians calling their profits "obscene" as was the case with Microsoft, Apple, Exxon/Mobile, etc. I'm quite certain that one of the main reasons our management gave billions to shareholders was that they were concerned about what 5 billion plus levels of profit would look like to the populists and regulators.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1708806)

Agreed. DAL88's point was that it's as simple as raising fares by $3 per ticket. My point was that it's not quite that simple.

I don't think he said it was simple. He said it was a possibility for management in an effort to offset increased costs for pilots.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1708808)

They sure spent a lot of money and collected a lot of dues for having no goals. Couldn't they have just had a yearly meeting and played dominoes if all they wanted to do was not make contract improvements. What they wanted was to negotiate a new seniority list based on Date of Hire and they failed. In that failure they cost their pilots billions of dollars. It is just amazing how the webboard folks can dismiss this type of failure while attacking DALPA as a failure. Sometimes you guys have shifting standards of success that have no consistent basis, just whatever confirms your own bias. If DALPA merely says their goals are exactly what happened then they are successes in your mind. How convenient.

USAPA has NOT abrogated an arbitration. They have delayed it. I know the webbboard lawyers are celebrating their temporary delays as some victory, but they are coming to a close. USAPA will soon not represent anyone in anything. They signed away their right to represent in the MOU and soon APA will represent the entire pilot group.

The APA has stated openly that they will not take on the DFR liabilities of USAPA. That means that there will be three separate merger committees, East, West, and APA. Actually, AMR management is also a party to the proceedings and they have openly stated that they will not take on the DFR liabilities of USAPA. The Allegheny/Mohawk LPP's dictate that all disputes amongst the parties will be solved by final and binding arbitration.

Therefore, my guess is the first dispute is what list will be integrated in with the American list. That dispute will be solved by an arbitrator (or panel of arbitrators) and they will decide whether or not the previous arbitration has been abrogated by USAPA's delays. My guess is that the East pilots will not be happy with that arbitration.

All complicated cases like this go their own way so there may be some other solution. In the end, the West pilots have their rights. As one of the federal judges said, a neutral arbitration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Therefore, whatever happens to the West pilots will be judged on the basis of what their rights were under the Nicolau award. If the Nicolau award is not used, then the West pilots will have to have seniority as good or better than the Nicolau award or someone will have to pay them money.

As I said before, neither the APA nor AMR management want to be writing those checks, so USAPA has merely delayed the arbitration, they have abrogated nothing. USAPA can't negotiate away the West's pilots rights no matter how much internet blather they spew. Delay is not victory. Instead, they just flushed away billions of dollars they will never get back. WINNING!!!!!!!!!

I hear what you're saying and I think that's true, they only delayed it. They didn't know the merger was coming though so to them they thought it was going to be perpetual until they left.

It seems to have been more vindictive than anything, kind of a burn down the house but without burning it down. They went on strike without it being a strike and they were fine by that.

Alphas explanation is below at the bottom:

Interesting.

But folks, what he is missing here and not taking into account are the two people whom are pulling the DPA strings motivation.

I will assume as fact that they are Caplinger and yes, Seham, as it seems that Tim has become quite enthralled with Lee, much to his Associations detriment.

IF there is any remote connection to Dalpa or ALPA with "John Doe" that will allow them to proceed legally, trust that they will.

DPA is no longer in a position to prevail on its own as an organized entity. Filing a suit will be out of spite for Tim, and for profit obviously for the "lawyer".

The problem is that they then get to siphon away dues money as a defense is mounted and quite possibly drain more in a judgement and settlement. That's is a problem, but minor in nature compared to possibly finding out through discovery and motions to compel that Dalpa or ALPA did have a hand in this.

I would have said it was never possible that Dalpa would be involved, but then again, I never guessed that they'd form a secret committee off the books either. That will be the target of any suit and it's not us that has to be convinced, it's a jury, and we all know how well that has worked out for ALPA before.

The real intriguing component will be seeing who lines up to be the first to throw whom under the bus, as the political blow back from a lawsuits legal fishing expedition mounts, and self preservation and vanity boil to the surface.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1708790)

It is immaterial if this guy had some connection to ALPA at some point in his life. Just because he ever did ALPA work does not mean ALPA sanctioned or would ever sanction this type of behavior. Since you have no case and there is no "scandal" you are trying to invent one out of thin air. The argument is that if this guy was ever connected with ALPA then ALPA is responsible.

This is a silly argument and one which normal people will see through in an instant. I can see how the DPA faithful will be rallied to chuck out some more money to their attorney, but everyone that thinks can understand that doing ALPA work does not make you an agent of ALPA for every private action you take. ALPA has a leadership structure and if ALPA ordered this action (which didn't take place) then ALPA is responsible. If this guy had some connection to ALPA and took action on his own free time then ALPA has no responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo (Post 1708808)

They sure spent a lot of money and collected a lot of dues for having no goals. Couldn't they have just had a yearly meeting and played dominoes if all they wanted to do was not make contract improvements. What they wanted was to negotiate a new seniority list based on Date of Hire and they failed. In that failure they cost their pilots billions of dollars. It is just amazing how the webboard folks can dismiss this type of failure while attacking DALPA as a failure. Sometimes you guys have shifting standards of success that have no consistent basis, just whatever confirms your own bias. If DALPA merely says their goals are exactly what happened then they are successes in your mind. How convenient.

USAPA has NOT abrogated an arbitration. They have delayed it. I know the webbboard lawyers are celebrating their temporary delays as some victory, but they are coming to a close. USAPA will soon not represent anyone in anything. They signed away their right to represent in the MOU and soon APA will represent the entire pilot group.

The APA has stated openly that they will not take on the DFR liabilities of USAPA. That means that there will be three separate merger committees, East, West, and APA. Actually, AMR management is also a party to the proceedings and they have openly stated that they will not take on the DFR liabilities of USAPA. The Allegheny/Mohawk LPP's dictate that all disputes amongst the parties will be solved by final and binding arbitration.

Therefore, my guess is the first dispute is what list will be integrated in with the American list. That dispute will be solved by an arbitrator (or panel of arbitrators) and they will decide whether or not the previous arbitration has been abrogated by USAPA's delays. My guess is that the East pilots will not be happy with that arbitration.

All complicated cases like this go their own way so there may be some other solution. In the end, the West pilots have their rights. As one of the federal judges said, a neutral arbitration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Therefore, whatever happens to the West pilots will be judged on the basis of what their rights were under the Nicolau award. If the Nicolau award is not used, then the West pilots will have to have seniority as good or better than the Nicolau award or someone will have to pay them money.

As I said before, neither the APA nor AMR management want to be writing those checks, so USAPA has merely delayed the arbitration, they have abrogated nothing. USAPA can't negotiate away the West's pilots rights no matter how much internet blather they spew. Delay is not victory. Instead, they just flushed away billions of dollars they will never get back. WINNING!!!!!!!!!

That is not how USAPA sees it

This is not just about the list or the Nic.

It is also about capturing the attrition. They unfortunately, through their delay and legal spamming tactics, have won that battle.

As they have steadily retired senior pilots off the east list, they have replaced all those retirements with east pilots moving up into their vacated positions. Lots of movement, even hiring at the bottom.

Not so out west.

Not as simple as you try and make it Alfa.