Originally Posted by alfaromeo

What the East has created is a temporary fence. Right now it is working in their favor, you are correct. The problem with fences is that they all end. For instance, in the Northwest/Republic (Red Book/Green Book) merger, they had fences that lasted 18 years. When the fences were ready to expire, the Red Book team tried desperately to extend them. They had already negotiated LIFETIME reinstatement rights so that anyone displaced from the whales (red book) would have priority over other pilots (green book) for eternity. They also filed a last ditch arbitration to extend the fence that was rejected out of hand.

When the DAL/NWA merger occurred, the lifetime reinstatement rights fell by the wayside and when the 744 staffing was expanded and the 747 freighters were displaced, the green book guys moved into the whale in large numbers. In the top 1/3 of the whale captains there are only 12 red book guys remaining. In fact, if you trace the militancy of Carl back in time, you can find how unhinged he got right around the time the green book guys took over the top half of the whale captain category list.

The same effect happened to a lesser degree at UAL/CAL. After the merger, it took three years for the SLI to finish up. During that time, UAL management was replacing 757's with 737 NG's. (sound familiar) Only the UAL side 757's were leaving the fleet and the CAL side got the 737 NG's. Remember when everyone was talking about 2005 hires at CAL getting 757 bids? Well that is what caused it.

After the SLI the virtual fence came down and now the vast majority of Captain bids (around 80+%) are going to former UAL pilots. Those CAL guys who got those bids early will now either bid off or be stuck at the bottom of the list for years.

So the East pilots have this temporary fence that is working in their favor now. Under their old contract, an upgrade from A-330 FO to A-320 Captain would yield a pay increase of about $15,000 per year. If that same pilot had stayed as an A-330 FO and obtained the Delta contract his raise would have been about $55,000 per year. In fact, he would have been making more than his A-3300 Captain under the LCC contract. Maybe that fourth stripe is worth it.

The bottom line is that all fences expire. These short term gains for the East pilots came at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost wages. When the final list with AMR is done whatever advantage these guys have will melt away.

So I understand that sometimes upgrades to higher paying positions are like crack; people covet this for so long it clouds their vision of the future. Real gains are made through the contract. The East pilots would have retained most of their attrition with the Nicolau award. Even their own analysis shows the MAXIMUM delay in upgrade to Captain was two years with the Nicolau award vs. standalone. Simply getting a Delta contract would have given instant upgrade economics to their entire list. Even much more than that. Now they have to be happy with a handful of guys upgrading every month. Again, that bonus will run out soon.

So you are right it is more complicated. The bottom line is that they lost a bunch of money they will never get back. Whatever short term advantage they have is soon to be lost. Those lost years will never be won back.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

I guess you would have figured out that since I don't know who it is, there is no way I could answer the question.

But, of course you are setting up a false dilemma. What you are arguing is that if this guy ever had even a shred of connection with ALPA, then ALPA is responsible for this hacking.

Tomorrow I will be driving to work. Let's say I am speeding on the highway and crash into a station wagon full of nuns and give them all whiplash. I am going to work at Delta, wearing my Delta uniform, in a car paid for by money made from Delta Air Lines.

Now, does Delta Air Lines, or Richard Anderson, or my Chief Pilot have anything to do with this accident? Please answer that yes or no.

Once again, I deny there was any hacking involved whatsoever, I saw the dump from the DNS entries and DPA or someone else screwed them up. It's not a big deal, but they should just own up to it and let the matter go. But in order to answer your question, we have to assume some hacking actually took place; so once again let's ride the crazy train.

It is immaterial if this guy had some connection to ALPA at some point in his life. Just because he ever did ALPA work does not mean ALPA sanctioned or would ever sanction this type of behavior. Since you have no case and there is no "scandal" you are trying to invent one out of thin air. The argument is that if this guy was ever connected with ALPA then ALPA is responsible.

This is a silly argument and one which normal people will see through in an instant. I can see how the DPA faithful will be rallied to chuck out some more money to their attorney, but everyone that thinks can understand that doing ALPA work does not make you an agent of ALPA for every private action you take. ALPA has a leadership structure and if ALPA ordered this action (which didn't take place) then ALPA is responsible. If this guy had some connection to ALPA and took action on his own free time then ALPA has no responsibility.

Once again, lacking ESP, I have no idea who this person is and I don't ever want to know. I simply don't understand how you can't grasp the fact that I don't know who this is so therefore I can't answer any questions about him. Is that plain enough for you? Yes or No.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Now, in 2015 we are in a position where we need about a 50% increase to fully restore our buying power. So what is your objective, Alan?

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Do you think your reps are thinking along the same lines as you?

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

Ed, that all sounds great! But for us laymen out here, do you know what the consensus is for expected profit for third quarter 2014? Thx

Denny

Originally Posted by Check Essential

What?! No whales or 777s?

Whaddaya know. The 737 finally gettin' some love.

TAKING OFF ? Air-to-Air Photography // Behind the Scenes By:...

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

I've flown with several new hires lately. If I understood correctly, the company pays for a hotel room during the indoc portion of their training and then they are on their own for simulator.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

I'll give the 346's less than a 1% chance of happening.

I'll give 330NEOs a 99+% chance of happening.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Okay, think about this, we get the A346s and remove two engines... Boom. Money saved.

Originally Posted by n9810f

Looks like the same film company that Boeing shot for the 787-9 Farnborough Air Show preview video. That's clearly Moses Lake (MWH) and Eastern Washington with the plane.

In case you haven't seen this...incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZRKm6PG918