Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-27-2014 | 10:59 AM
Moderator
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From: DAL 330
08-27-2014 | 11:12 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
08-27-2014 | 11:13 AM
Doesn't Get Weekends Off
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Right. Just so we're straight, I'm not making any blanket statements about 2007 guys, or about ftb. He's a smart guy and a great APC contributor. I'm only mentioning him by name because he's very vocal on this topic. And wrong, IMO.
I would argue that almost everyone I know acknowledges your point: the current system is better than in 2007. It's debatable whether it's good enough, but it's pretty clearly better.
The only sort of complaints I see about the bucket system is that sometimes, when you're not staffed too tight, a senior guy that's in the same bucket gets to stay home for a brief reprieve.
I think we agree he deserves it.
I would argue that almost everyone I know acknowledges your point: the current system is better than in 2007. It's debatable whether it's good enough, but it's pretty clearly better.
The only sort of complaints I see about the bucket system is that sometimes, when you're not staffed too tight, a senior guy that's in the same bucket gets to stay home for a brief reprieve.
I think we agree he deserves it.
My biggest complaint about the bucket system is that it is still tied to this almost impossible to figure out RAW score. I think it should somehow be tied to credit hours and we should get an extra 2 hours credit for every SC we sit. I also think we should have a certain percentage of the reserve guys be able to bid for LC only lines.
08-27-2014 | 11:15 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
You guys hating on 07 hires, and I hate them too their senior to me, but you realize that reserve is a category by category thing right? What about all of the 1991 hires sitting reserve as Captains, didn't they pay their dues? Getting back at the spoiled 07 hires and after via a pay your dues reserve system does nothing for a vast majority of those on reserve.
And frankly, a reserve system that gives a pilot a month off with pay is a reserve system the company can easily fix and be thankful that you showed where the fat was.
And frankly, a reserve system that gives a pilot a month off with pay is a reserve system the company can easily fix and be thankful that you showed where the fat was.
08-27-2014 | 11:16 AM
ATL A320 B
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From: No longer MEM or 9, but still a guy.
08-27-2014 | 11:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: Sitting SC at the Five Towns
Deleted, FTB was too quick.
08-27-2014 | 11:18 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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08-27-2014 | 11:23 AM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 7er
You should also be able to sit long call from home. It's ridiculous that I'm a 2 hour flight from base but I have window between about 6pm-11pm where I can't make a 12 hour report / sign in.
08-27-2014 | 11:26 AM
Line Holder
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From: Captain
My Scoop speaks for me!
Clearly, the Reserve system's trip into a Marxist-Leninist bent post 9/11 was punitive to many pilots that had already pre-paid their dues under the old system, and were subsequently unable to get any credit for their seniority, the value of which plummeted to zero. Our devalued rights, which were converted into some new crap called RAW currency, which was given freely to all. Which made a new hire just as much of a prince or a peasant as anyone else, and so it was that ftb and other newhires got to think of themselves as equally entitled to flying as someone who HAD been furloughed, HAD lost the game of LOW/HIGH yellows when it was their turn, but now couldn't use their seniority at all to compete for flying anymore. We got shafted, but their perspective on this matter was based on the then-existing system of 2007.
So, to the newhires, past dues that went unrewarded went completely unnoticed.
When we finally designed and implemented something better, they 2007 guys cry bitter tears over the fact that there is LITTLE seniority bias to the Reserve system (emphasis on "little"), and they can't bear the thought of losing the artificial equality they had come to live under, never mind that it was an accident of a history they didn't share in. They sure don't mind the fact that a junior guy flies a trip they don't want, but they can't bear the idea of a senior guy sitting a little longer in a different raw bucket. It messes up their brains, this slightly unequal screw-job, even though it is entirely appropriate, and STILL fails to properly pay us back.
My thinking is that when all you're obsessed about is making sure we're all getting screwed equally, you're in the wrong game. When we design a system, as we have that is CLEARLY much better in the aggregate for Reserves we win. And when we design it with a LITTLE seniority bias, we are only doing what is right.
ftb's problem isn't that he got screwed when he was junior (he didn't), is that he has too little respect for those of us that got screwed when we were junior AND when we were more senior.
Clearly, the Reserve system's trip into a Marxist-Leninist bent post 9/11 was punitive to many pilots that had already pre-paid their dues under the old system, and were subsequently unable to get any credit for their seniority, the value of which plummeted to zero. Our devalued rights, which were converted into some new crap called RAW currency, which was given freely to all. Which made a new hire just as much of a prince or a peasant as anyone else, and so it was that ftb and other newhires got to think of themselves as equally entitled to flying as someone who HAD been furloughed, HAD lost the game of LOW/HIGH yellows when it was their turn, but now couldn't use their seniority at all to compete for flying anymore. We got shafted, but their perspective on this matter was based on the then-existing system of 2007.
So, to the newhires, past dues that went unrewarded went completely unnoticed.
When we finally designed and implemented something better, they 2007 guys cry bitter tears over the fact that there is LITTLE seniority bias to the Reserve system (emphasis on "little"), and they can't bear the thought of losing the artificial equality they had come to live under, never mind that it was an accident of a history they didn't share in. They sure don't mind the fact that a junior guy flies a trip they don't want, but they can't bear the idea of a senior guy sitting a little longer in a different raw bucket. It messes up their brains, this slightly unequal screw-job, even though it is entirely appropriate, and STILL fails to properly pay us back.
My thinking is that when all you're obsessed about is making sure we're all getting screwed equally, you're in the wrong game. When we design a system, as we have that is CLEARLY much better in the aggregate for Reserves we win. And when we design it with a LITTLE seniority bias, we are only doing what is right.
ftb's problem isn't that he got screwed when he was junior (he didn't), is that he has too little respect for those of us that got screwed when we were junior AND when we were more senior.
As a new hire, I had no problem at all with being junior on reserve. I had no problem when after the first SOT, it even added more senioirty by doing away with days of availability. Heck, a senior 4 day guy could trump a 1 day guy out of a 1 day trip. (Of course the one day got to stay home, but the 4 day guy may have avoided a 4 day trip in the process)
Even being a junior reserve, I wanted something similar to the old system back when we gave that concession (and yes it was a concession in loa 46) to the company. Now, we should just hand that concession back to them?
Of course this is the same forum that had pilot(s) complaining that we should have higher reserve requirements on weekends so the chances of reserves flying would be less and fewer green slips would go out. Sometimes I just don't follow the logic here.....
08-27-2014 | 11:30 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
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You guys hating on 07 hires, and I hate them too their senior to me, but you realize that reserve is a category by category thing right? What about all of the 1991 hires sitting reserve as Captains, didn't they pay their dues? Getting back at the spoiled 07 hires and after via a pay your dues reserve system does nothing for a vast majority of those on reserve.
And frankly, a reserve system that gives a pilot a month off with pay is a reserve system the company can easily fix and be thankful that you showed where the fat was.
And frankly, a reserve system that gives a pilot a month off with pay is a reserve system the company can easily fix and be thankful that you showed where the fat was.
I think we're all trying to develop a system that's fair, and ordering flying by seniority, provided no one has to shoulder the entire load, is fair. I think most people are coming into this discussion from a perspective of trying to make things better for all pilots, including junior captains (I really mean it).
I get the impression you're coming at this from the perspective that everyone needs to fly based on RAW scores, by restricting the size of RAW buckets, so that senior guys don't get to pass on anything. My apologies if I'm mis-representing your viewpoint, but that's the theme I'm getting out of your arguments: it's not fair for a senior guy to "escape" a trip, because back when you started, they couldn't.
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