Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-24-2014 | 04:34 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Both engines have the same flat rated climb power. The weight restrictions are not very common.
I've only seen restrictions going out to BDA when we have to use ORF as an alternate.
Last edited by 80ktsClamp; 09-24-2014 at 04:48 PM.
09-24-2014 | 04:37 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,070
Likes: 1
From: Urban chicken rancher.
09-24-2014 | 05:07 PM
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,503
Likes: 2
From: Fairly local
09-24-2014 | 05:21 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,070
Likes: 1
From: Urban chicken rancher.
09-24-2014 | 05:23 PM
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,503
Likes: 2
From: Fairly local
I figured as much, but I was hoping with all the new people it would be better.
Why was reserve coverage so good for the last week or two of September but it's so bad for most of October? Does it always go that way, i.e., bad at first but better as the month progresses?
Why was reserve coverage so good for the last week or two of September but it's so bad for most of October? Does it always go that way, i.e., bad at first but better as the month progresses?
09-24-2014 | 05:31 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
ftb as a kid. You can tell he was going to go to Auburn by the tractor.
09-24-2014 | 05:45 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,070
Likes: 1
From: Urban chicken rancher.
I figured as much, but I was hoping with all the new people it would be better.
Why was reserve coverage so good for the last week or two of September but it's so bad for most of October? Does it always go that way, i.e., bad at first but better as the month progresses?
Why was reserve coverage so good for the last week or two of September but it's so bad for most of October? Does it always go that way, i.e., bad at first but better as the month progresses?
09-24-2014 | 05:57 PM
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,503
Likes: 2
From: Fairly local
09-24-2014 | 05:58 PM
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 41
From: Middle Seat
09-24-2014 | 06:18 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Jughead and BB,
What BB wrote is all true--there is no avoiding coverage. HOWEVER, there is a critical point he missed: you are NOT trying to get a "coverage" day off, you're trying to get a normal non-holiday day off. Maybe a weekend, which CAN get coverage assigned out at the very beginning of a month if you're right at the bottom of the list. In any case, if you get assigned a coverage award over the more-difficult-to-cover days you don't care about, that will only make it MORE likely that you get the days off you want, as now there is less credit for your line to award.
BB asked for some schooling on picking amongst coverage, and it applies to your situation, so here it is.
Let's say there are five coverage trips in Nov, one for every weekend and a thanksgiving trip. Let's say you're at the bottom of the lists, within 5 from the bottom and thus you ARE going to get a coverage award. How do you get the one you think is best?
1. Guess where the coverage awards will be... pretty easy. TG, and every weekend.
2. PREFER OFF or AVOID all the trips that might be coveraged. But do it in a cascade-- more avoidance for the ones you really don't want, less avoidance for the best ones, that is lower priority avoids. So:
Prefer off 1st weekend of Nov
Prefer off 2nd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 3rd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 4th weekend of Nov
.....AWARD a coverage-trip over 4th weekend if prefer-off above is denied (example)
Prefer off TG (you really don't care if you work this, see?)
3. NOW, you filter for trips that WILL BE COVERAGED if able, and you by name them in between. You won't get the trip UNLESS first it is indeed a coverage award, or second your stuff gets denied up to that point anyways.
4. When coverage happens, there is more going on than the blurb BB posted. PBS actually comes to your line with a list of coverage trips it has to fill. It looks at your preferences, and tries to stick a coverage trip into your line that honors your preferences-- it actually starts at the top and goes through them with the coverage trips as the "pool" and sees if it can honor your prefers and avoids and still have something LEFT in the coverage pool. If yes, it steps to the next line in your bidgroup, etc., until it realizes it has only one coverage award left. At that point, it DENIES your prefer/avoid and gives you the coverage award.
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
The pertinent verbiage from the PBS gouge/handbook is actually just after what BB quoted, and here it is:
If I had the source code I could tell you exactly; but for bidding purposes, the gouge I posted in blue is sufficient to create your counter-algorithm.
Best of luck.
What BB wrote is all true--there is no avoiding coverage. HOWEVER, there is a critical point he missed: you are NOT trying to get a "coverage" day off, you're trying to get a normal non-holiday day off. Maybe a weekend, which CAN get coverage assigned out at the very beginning of a month if you're right at the bottom of the list. In any case, if you get assigned a coverage award over the more-difficult-to-cover days you don't care about, that will only make it MORE likely that you get the days off you want, as now there is less credit for your line to award.
BB asked for some schooling on picking amongst coverage, and it applies to your situation, so here it is.
Let's say there are five coverage trips in Nov, one for every weekend and a thanksgiving trip. Let's say you're at the bottom of the lists, within 5 from the bottom and thus you ARE going to get a coverage award. How do you get the one you think is best?
1. Guess where the coverage awards will be... pretty easy. TG, and every weekend.
2. PREFER OFF or AVOID all the trips that might be coveraged. But do it in a cascade-- more avoidance for the ones you really don't want, less avoidance for the best ones, that is lower priority avoids. So:
Prefer off 1st weekend of Nov
Prefer off 2nd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 3rd weekend of Nov
Prefer off 4th weekend of Nov
.....AWARD a coverage-trip over 4th weekend if prefer-off above is denied (example)
Prefer off TG (you really don't care if you work this, see?)
3. NOW, you filter for trips that WILL BE COVERAGED if able, and you by name them in between. You won't get the trip UNLESS first it is indeed a coverage award, or second your stuff gets denied up to that point anyways.
4. When coverage happens, there is more going on than the blurb BB posted. PBS actually comes to your line with a list of coverage trips it has to fill. It looks at your preferences, and tries to stick a coverage trip into your line that honors your preferences-- it actually starts at the top and goes through them with the coverage trips as the "pool" and sees if it can honor your prefers and avoids and still have something LEFT in the coverage pool. If yes, it steps to the next line in your bidgroup, etc., until it realizes it has only one coverage award left. At that point, it DENIES your prefer/avoid and gives you the coverage award.
.......... how's that look to YOU? It looks like a normal bid processing almost with coverage trips as the pool! Let's say it works through your bid, what will it do? It will assign you the coverage trip over TG first, if that's not possible or is gone it will assign the trip over the 4th weekend. Successful coverage? >> you've got your coverage "pre-award", coverage for YOU is done, and PBS then works your regular award. (It may in fact first go on to the next most junior guy and assign coverage out to him, etc. until all coverage is assigned, then back up to top for regular processing; the exact iteration of coverage then regular-awards is unclear to me).
5. Now...let's get more realistic. Let's say that when PBS gets to YOU, there are in fact 100 coverage award trips to be assigned. How do you get the best? By putting an "Award crappy likely-coverage trip #4081 leaving on Sat with redeye (but not so bad as OTHER ****E listed higher up my bid..)" line AFTER your "Avoid crappy likely coverage trip #4081 and other's like it...". If PBS CAN avoid this while giving you coverage, it will do so and try to work down your bid and assign you what you've thus defined as the least onerous coverage trip. If it can't honor your avoid and still have any coverage trips left, then it denies that avoid and looks to see if you if fact have an AWARD that is now active that would allow it to give you one of the remaining coverage trips. Happy Day! Your perspicacious foresight is rewarded, you DO have such a worst-case AWARD, and it gives you #4081.
The pertinent verbiage from the PBS gouge/handbook is actually just after what BB quoted, and here it is:
PBS combines pairings where possible and looks at how the combination meets your preferences. PBS will look at the following in the context of which best meets your bid preferences:
Option 1: Combination of Pairings 1 and 2
Option 2: Pairing 3
PBS Gouge
Last updated 04 Feb 2014 65
Prefer Off (Pairings Bid Group)
PBS next looks through your preferences within the bid group step by step. If a Prefer Off preference is encountered, PBS will look through each of the dates left to right and attempt to honor each one. In the case of a day of the week, PBS will look at each date. For example, Prefer Off Saturday would be processed as Prefer Off Prefer Off December 1, 8, 15, 22, 29. If the Prefer Off preference has an Else Start Next Bid Group and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates within that preference, PBS will jump to the next bid group. If the preference has no Else Start Next and PBS is unable to honor a date, it will simply ignore the date and continue to the right to attempt to honor any other dates or move to the next preference as applicable. If the Prefer Off preference has an All or Nothing clause and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates, it will ignore all of the dates in the preference and move to the next preference, but stay within the bid group.
Avoid
The logic for an Avoid preference is similar to the Prefer Off preference except that PBS will either be able to honor the whole preference or not. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference with an Else Start Next Bid Group, then it will jump to the next bid group. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference without an Else Start Next Bid Group then it will ignore the preference and continue to the next preference.
Award
If a preference is an Award preference, then PBS will award one of the defined pairings or combinations as the Coverage award. PBS will then build the rest of the line around the Coverage award treating the Coverage award like a carry in pairing, vacation, or training.
A limit option can be placed on an Award preference. Coverage is an independent process that precedes the regular award process. PBS will not add any more pairings than specified by the limit during the normal processing after Coverage, but it will not take into account any pairing(s) that were awarded in the Coverage process.
Set Condition
PBS does not consider Set Condition preferences during the coverage process. Set Condition preferences only apply to the normal bid processing. For this reason, it is important to use a Prefer Off and not depend on Set Condition Slide Vacation during periods of unstacking.
Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group
PBS will jump to the next bid group rather than violate a Prefer Off or Avoid preference in a bid group with a Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group. As of October 2011, PBS will not consider the system generated Award Pairings below the CSSN as part of any process including Coverage.
Regular Processing
After PBS has assigned the Coverage pairings or combination of pairings, it processes your bids using the normal processing logic in the same bid group that it covered from except that it starts with the covered pairings on your line. If PBS had to ignore any Prefer Off or Avoid preferences during the coverage process, this is irrelevant to the regular processing.
Translating programming code and iterative loops of how PBS actually works, into English trying to explain to non-programmers how it works, results in inaccuracies. If you read the PBS gouge and try to lawyer the words with "but it says here that this happens..." then you're assuming that the guy who wrote the gouge was ALSO of the programmer's caliber in understanding and was ALSO supreme-court level Lawyer material. Not a good bet. The gouge wording on "If PBS reaches a point where it estimates that it will end the run with too many open duty periods over a time period, it starts assigning trips from the stacked or uncovered period. Everybody from this point on is vulnerable from the stack." is problematic from a programming standpoint, and likely untrue strictly speaking. Predictive algorithms for estimating end-of-run overages are vastly more complicated and less elegant from a programming perspective than what I think actually happens. Most elegant is to just do the run, count how many times a trip can be given out and how many times a trip is denied, and rank order the trips thus. Shuffling algorithms support the view that this is in fact what happens--trips must be ranked to shuffle, and SOME basis must exist for PBS to "estimate" uncovered trips--the basis is a pre-run. It now knows how far up the bids it must go with coverage, and it does so; the iterative process described in the gouge happens after this first hack, when the coverage process itself further limits awards resulting in more coverage trips left over; thus a higher re-start of coverage attempt.Option 1: Combination of Pairings 1 and 2
Option 2: Pairing 3
PBS Gouge
Last updated 04 Feb 2014 65
Prefer Off (Pairings Bid Group)
PBS next looks through your preferences within the bid group step by step. If a Prefer Off preference is encountered, PBS will look through each of the dates left to right and attempt to honor each one. In the case of a day of the week, PBS will look at each date. For example, Prefer Off Saturday would be processed as Prefer Off Prefer Off December 1, 8, 15, 22, 29. If the Prefer Off preference has an Else Start Next Bid Group and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates within that preference, PBS will jump to the next bid group. If the preference has no Else Start Next and PBS is unable to honor a date, it will simply ignore the date and continue to the right to attempt to honor any other dates or move to the next preference as applicable. If the Prefer Off preference has an All or Nothing clause and PBS is unable to honor one of the dates, it will ignore all of the dates in the preference and move to the next preference, but stay within the bid group.
Avoid
The logic for an Avoid preference is similar to the Prefer Off preference except that PBS will either be able to honor the whole preference or not. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference with an Else Start Next Bid Group, then it will jump to the next bid group. If PBS is unable to honor an Avoid Preference without an Else Start Next Bid Group then it will ignore the preference and continue to the next preference.
Award
If a preference is an Award preference, then PBS will award one of the defined pairings or combinations as the Coverage award. PBS will then build the rest of the line around the Coverage award treating the Coverage award like a carry in pairing, vacation, or training.
A limit option can be placed on an Award preference. Coverage is an independent process that precedes the regular award process. PBS will not add any more pairings than specified by the limit during the normal processing after Coverage, but it will not take into account any pairing(s) that were awarded in the Coverage process.
Set Condition
PBS does not consider Set Condition preferences during the coverage process. Set Condition preferences only apply to the normal bid processing. For this reason, it is important to use a Prefer Off and not depend on Set Condition Slide Vacation during periods of unstacking.
Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group
PBS will jump to the next bid group rather than violate a Prefer Off or Avoid preference in a bid group with a Clear Schedule and Start Next Bid Group. As of October 2011, PBS will not consider the system generated Award Pairings below the CSSN as part of any process including Coverage.
Regular Processing
After PBS has assigned the Coverage pairings or combination of pairings, it processes your bids using the normal processing logic in the same bid group that it covered from except that it starts with the covered pairings on your line. If PBS had to ignore any Prefer Off or Avoid preferences during the coverage process, this is irrelevant to the regular processing.
If I had the source code I could tell you exactly; but for bidding purposes, the gouge I posted in blue is sufficient to create your counter-algorithm.
Best of luck.
Needs a sticky.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
