Originally Posted by Check Essential (Post 1897969)

Shiznit-
I don't know what's in this TA and therefore can't tell you if I'm for it or against it. But I do know one thing. The argument you make in that post really irritates me.

I'm mighty tired of my union being 100% passive, compliant and scared.
Scared of Anderson, scared of the NMB and scared of their own shadow.
And what's worse is using that fear as a weapon to control the membership.
We are not SWA or FDX or AMR.

There are plenty of things we can legally do to exert pressure on management to bargain in good faith. They seem to place great value on their success at taking labor risk off the table at Delta. The first thing we could do is start acting like a real union and put that risk right back on the table. FAST. And in a BIG WAY.

If this TA were to be rejected and Mr. Anderson stops bargaining in good faith and says he's going to go the "traditional route" (putting us "on ice" for years) the first thing we should announce is that we are putting him on ice and making it the #1 goal of ALPA to organize and unionize the flight attendants and mechanics and every other labor group on this property.

ALPA has had an official policy of letting the other employee groups twist in the wind while incompetent organization drives sputtered and stalled and failed. That policy of helping management defeat the other unions would end immediately. And you know what? I think we would succeed. We could have about 3 more unions at this company within a year. I think that might get management's attention.

And that would only be the first thing I would do. There's about 8 more.

So please knock it off with the "fear factor" posts -- telling pilots that if we don't capitulate to management's every wish then we will have to wait years to get a new contract. Its not true. We are NOT helpless. We CAN say no to management demands without getting put on ice.

I know ALPA doesn't want to abandon Moakism and the whole constructive relationship with management. Its been good for ALPA. It saves them a lot of money. But there comes a point when the pilots might have to stand up and defend ourselves. Whether ALPA likes it or not. We may have reached that point. We'll see on Tuesday.

Originally Posted by Professor (Post 1897993)

First off let me say that it is important to understand that talking about job actions in a public forum, or things that may be viewed as a potential job action without having been released to self-help is a big no no. As in illegal. Ask AA and UAL guys how that went. Just FYI.

I don't think you do that in your post. But I think it is important for everyone to know that as a labor group under the auspices of the RLA to understand that even talking about that stuff is bad juju. That is until the labor group is released to legal 'self help'.

Now, that said....

Get angry if you like. But you and the 10 or so other super-negative Nelly's we have on here are putting the cart SO far ahead of the horse, we are in a reboot of a Marx brothers skit. The cart is in Chicago and the horse is in New York.

Ok. Again, we don't have a published TA.
I'm not sure how all of you guys are so spooled up on rumors that truly run the gamut.

Now, THAT said...

If our rates in this contract exceed those of AA/UAL/FedEx by the end of it...that is a betrayal by DALPA?
Because of all rumored rates I have heard, they all get us there by 2017. And ahead of AA the richest pay rates out there.

The theme from all of you is continuous. Its fear and anger based but with no connection to reality nor to the rest of the industry's rates and work rules.

If we have the best pay rates and profit sharing which NO other carrier does to the extent we do...um, what's the problem?

Look, I'm not here to tell any of you in any way what to think of the TA if we get one. I'm just here to tell you what is in it.

And right now nothing is in it. Because it is notional. Until it is brought out to be voted on the thing doesn't exist for all intents and purposes.

I realize that most pilots are type A, über control freaks. I'm also realizing that I lie on the very shallow/mildly afflicted end of that scale.

Let us just calm down and wait.

Do it as a service to the countless lurkers on this board that just want to be able to be informed and make a decision themselves.

Originally Posted by TED74 (Post 1897998)

The rumors don't run the gamut. They are all pretty much at one end...at least every one I have heard here and at work.

And you've already lost if your metric for success is AA. Why even have a survey if you aren't going to measure a TA against THAT and against what is fiscally possible/reasonable given THIS pilot group's work and sacrifices?

Originally Posted by gzsg (Post 1897943)

O

This TA is worse than C2012.

Originally Posted by Professor (Post 1898004)

Uhm, because it's the top of market rates????

Do you think the NMB looks at 'possible'??? It's possible to have unicorns greet passengers as they board. But not likely.

The NMB looks at market comps. They don't say 'well delta really has been messed around more that other airlines, and they make more money as a company...here delta pilots, here is an extra billion a year'. They look at competitor rates, what the market currently bears and you get that.

Again. LETS WAIT UNTIL WE HAVE A TA!!!!!

Originally Posted by shiznit (Post 1897983)

STOP THE FREAK OUT

Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez (Post 1898016)

Prove it. Before it comes out. Other than that is it more of your divisive BS.

Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 1898021)

Now now. Don't get your pressure up. :D