Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-18-2015 | 08:01 PM
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From: DAL FO
Interesting. I must have missed that one. I know there was some kind of grievance settlement on reroute but don't know the details. That's probably what you're referring to. I'd be interested to hear the answer if you find one.
06-18-2015 | 08:22 PM
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Recently we received an ALPA email that celebrated reroute protections they just negotiated. Tonight scheduling just gave me ten hour notice of a 4:35 am van instead of a 7:00 am van. Covering a late inbound crew's flight tomorrow.
For the life of me I can not find any document on the MEC site documenting that premium pay for less that a 14 hour notice on a reroute.
Does anyone know where I can find that document and its effective date? Scheduling says they know nothing about premium pay for short notice reroutes.
Thanks,
For the life of me I can not find any document on the MEC site documenting that premium pay for less that a 14 hour notice on a reroute.
Does anyone know where I can find that document and its effective date? Scheduling says they know nothing about premium pay for short notice reroutes.
Thanks,
06-18-2015 | 10:46 PM
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From: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Easily one of the most short-sighted posts I've seen this week - and that's saying something.
If you can't separate PAC donations to fight off the foreign invaders from a TA that you may not agree with....just wow!
Of all the things that ALPA does, government affairs in DC is easily at the top of my list. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I'll just have to up my donations again to carry your dead weight.
If you can't separate PAC donations to fight off the foreign invaders from a TA that you may not agree with....just wow!
Of all the things that ALPA does, government affairs in DC is easily at the top of my list. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I'll just have to up my donations again to carry your dead weight.
Backing the ALPA PAC is the best money you can spend to protect your profession.
Even though I think this TA stinks, I'll keep supporting the ALPA PAC, one has nothing to do with the other...
Cheers
George
06-19-2015 | 03:12 AM
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From: SEA 7ER B
I talked about the TA with a CA I just flew with. He is a solid 'yes' on this TA and, just as there are guys on the 'no' side who don't accept consenting opinions, I would describe him as not accepting the opinions of those who would vote 'no'...including me.
He thinks the 'no' voters could take Delta the way of NW -- as he is former NW. He says he'd rather have a certain pay raise than the PS anyway. I asked him why not take the raise and leave PS alone? He didn't have an answer. I brought up that the pay raises are nullified to some extent by the PS limits. He disagreed even though the math says otherwise. By not factoring in inflation, he also contends that this IS the richest pilot contract in airline history. He also said that slow & steady are the way to go...and that we'll get even more in 3 years.
He said the FO bidding grievance is bogus because some senior FOs are mad they can't sit at home and get paid for doing nothing.
He actually had a little bit of an issue with the sick leave rules but it wasn't enough to make him vote 'no.'
He basically said, "Sure...vote no. Then watch the company come back with nothing better. In the meantime, we lost months of the pay raise and guys are delaying flights because they are greedy and want more. Customer satisfaction drops. PS goes down. We lose our place at the top. Then someone tries to come buy us or take us over. It happened at Northwest. I've seen this all before. All because some guys wanted too much too soon. So go ahead and vote the way you feel."
Needless to say, it was a little awkward. I did try to lighten the mood by saying that the PS would be going down anyway with a 'yes' vote so no big deal there. I don't think he got the joke.
Not too many guys posting support for this TA but I have no doubt there are a good percentage of folks who agree with this CA.
He thinks the 'no' voters could take Delta the way of NW -- as he is former NW. He says he'd rather have a certain pay raise than the PS anyway. I asked him why not take the raise and leave PS alone? He didn't have an answer. I brought up that the pay raises are nullified to some extent by the PS limits. He disagreed even though the math says otherwise. By not factoring in inflation, he also contends that this IS the richest pilot contract in airline history. He also said that slow & steady are the way to go...and that we'll get even more in 3 years.
He said the FO bidding grievance is bogus because some senior FOs are mad they can't sit at home and get paid for doing nothing.
He actually had a little bit of an issue with the sick leave rules but it wasn't enough to make him vote 'no.'
He basically said, "Sure...vote no. Then watch the company come back with nothing better. In the meantime, we lost months of the pay raise and guys are delaying flights because they are greedy and want more. Customer satisfaction drops. PS goes down. We lose our place at the top. Then someone tries to come buy us or take us over. It happened at Northwest. I've seen this all before. All because some guys wanted too much too soon. So go ahead and vote the way you feel."
Needless to say, it was a little awkward. I did try to lighten the mood by saying that the PS would be going down anyway with a 'yes' vote so no big deal there. I don't think he got the joke.
Not too many guys posting support for this TA but I have no doubt there are a good percentage of folks who agree with this CA.
JV scope:I don't agree that pilots need to get involved in airline business decisions. The company has proven that they will make their decisions regardless of our negotiated JV anyway, and pay us the 1.5% of salary penalty in the grievance. $30 million spread over 12,500 pilots is a waste of negotiating capital.
Sick: there are no changes that prevent me from calling in "mentally sick" less than 14 days. Over 14 days I'll be fully medically sick, and clearly verifiable. Providing the charts for the illness to the Delta doctor does not scare me. I had to do this already once before for disability. If Delta is going to pay me to get well, they can have whatever verification they need. The added disability account offsets any inconvenience for me, I simply go to work when I am healthy, and I don't when I am not.
FO OE trip buy: this is a benefit for the few, not the rest of us. I'd rather have our company doing better overall than paying guys to not go to work. My top priority is to hand other airlines their assess, and we can't do that without going to work.
My issue is with the loss of profit share. If we had a group largely focused on that single item, I world join the galvanizing force. Unfortunately we don't. We have a group that is simply angry with everything. I can't join that. If the company wants to decrease profit sharing so they can reduce it company wide, then add 6% to my defined benefit plan, but don't take it from my pay raise! Unfortunately, I'm on an island.
Last edited by TCMC17RES; 06-19-2015 at 03:43 AM.
06-19-2015 | 03:42 AM
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From: A-320/A
Hi TCMC17RES
Maybe issues such as:
>sick leave changes,
>LCA having first shot at F/O lines of flying before all other F/Os,
>JV benchmarkers moved from EASK to BLK hrs,
and other items "....don't bother you/don't affect you.." however, those are clearly concessionary changes, of significant value to the company. Changes for which there is very little given back to the pilots in exchange. Yes, the pay rates, although anemic, and not what most expected, would probably pass MEMRAT. That is, if not for all the junk on pages 2,3, etc of the rest of this contract. Particularly P/S. When measured against what we give up in P/S, the increased pay raises simply don't add up to 8/6/3/3. Not if DAL makes 6B this year, which will probably happen. I'm not opposed to exchanging an increase in pay rates in return for all of the P/S. But let's negotiate that OUTSIDE of Section 6. The proposed pay rates do get us up to A/A book rates--but we clearly are doing much better than A/A, and 3/4ths of a decade ahead of them wrt merger integration issues. If not more. RA can reach his goal of having a contract before the year is out, and I think he will have that contract. However, we as a pilot group should send a resounding message:
NO. NOT THIS CONTRACT!
Maybe issues such as:
>sick leave changes,
>LCA having first shot at F/O lines of flying before all other F/Os,
>JV benchmarkers moved from EASK to BLK hrs,
and other items "....don't bother you/don't affect you.." however, those are clearly concessionary changes, of significant value to the company. Changes for which there is very little given back to the pilots in exchange. Yes, the pay rates, although anemic, and not what most expected, would probably pass MEMRAT. That is, if not for all the junk on pages 2,3, etc of the rest of this contract. Particularly P/S. When measured against what we give up in P/S, the increased pay raises simply don't add up to 8/6/3/3. Not if DAL makes 6B this year, which will probably happen. I'm not opposed to exchanging an increase in pay rates in return for all of the P/S. But let's negotiate that OUTSIDE of Section 6. The proposed pay rates do get us up to A/A book rates--but we clearly are doing much better than A/A, and 3/4ths of a decade ahead of them wrt merger integration issues. If not more. RA can reach his goal of having a contract before the year is out, and I think he will have that contract. However, we as a pilot group should send a resounding message:
NO. NOT THIS CONTRACT!
Last edited by chuck416; 06-19-2015 at 03:53 AM.
06-19-2015 | 03:57 AM
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From: SEA 7ER B
Hi TCMC17RES
Maybe issues such as:
>sick leave changes,
>LCA having first shot at F/O lines of flying before all other F/Os,
>JV benchmarkers moved from EASK to BLK hrs,
and other items "....don't bother you/don't affect you.." however, those are clearly concessionary changes, of significant value to the company. Changes for which there is very little given back to the pilots in exchange. Yes, the pay rates, although anemic, and not what most expected, would probably pass MEMRAT. That is, if not for all the junk on pages 2,3, etc of the rest of this contract. Particularly P/S. When measured against what we give up in P/S, the increased pay raises simply don't add up to 8/6/3/3. Not if DAL makes 6B this year, which will probably happen. I'm not opposed to exchanging an increase in pay rates in return for all of the P/S. But let's negotiate that OUTSIDE of Section 6. The proposed pay rates do get us up to A/A book rates--but we clearly are doing much better than A/A, and 3/4ths of a decade ahead of them wrt merger integration issues. If not more. RA can reach his goal of having a contract before the year is out, and I think he will have that contract. However, we as a pilot group should send a resounding message:
NO. NOT THIS CONTRACT!
Maybe issues such as:
>sick leave changes,
>LCA having first shot at F/O lines of flying before all other F/Os,
>JV benchmarkers moved from EASK to BLK hrs,
and other items "....don't bother you/don't affect you.." however, those are clearly concessionary changes, of significant value to the company. Changes for which there is very little given back to the pilots in exchange. Yes, the pay rates, although anemic, and not what most expected, would probably pass MEMRAT. That is, if not for all the junk on pages 2,3, etc of the rest of this contract. Particularly P/S. When measured against what we give up in P/S, the increased pay raises simply don't add up to 8/6/3/3. Not if DAL makes 6B this year, which will probably happen. I'm not opposed to exchanging an increase in pay rates in return for all of the P/S. But let's negotiate that OUTSIDE of Section 6. The proposed pay rates do get us up to A/A book rates--but we clearly are doing much better than A/A, and 3/4ths of a decade ahead of them wrt merger integration issues. If not more. RA can reach his goal of having a contract before the year is out, and I think he will have that contract. However, we as a pilot group should send a resounding message:
NO. NOT THIS CONTRACT!
Concessions, sure, so give me a pay raise, and if you want to reduce P/S, put it in my defined contribution plan. - That is a clean, clearly stated fight I can get behind. I fear that the blanket rant of general dissatisfaction will only result in 3 years of stalled ranting and dissatisfaction. Narrow the focus on what makes you vote yes, what we need to vote yes, and I'm in. I'm just not selling the next three years of my pay without a plan.
Last edited by TCMC17RES; 06-19-2015 at 04:24 AM.
06-19-2015 | 04:35 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 777B
Would you vote for the TA exactly as written if 6% was added to your defined contribution plan Jan 1 2016? If yes, then we are in complete agreement.
Concessions, sure, so give me a pay raise, and if you want to reduce P/S, put it in my defined contribution plan. - That is a clean, clearly stated fight I can get behind. I fear that the blanket rant of general dissatisfaction will only result in 3 years of stalled ranting and dissatisfaction. Narrow the focus on what makes you vote yes, what we need to vote yes, and I'm in. I'm just not selling the next three years of my pay without a plan.
Concessions, sure, so give me a pay raise, and if you want to reduce P/S, put it in my defined contribution plan. - That is a clean, clearly stated fight I can get behind. I fear that the blanket rant of general dissatisfaction will only result in 3 years of stalled ranting and dissatisfaction. Narrow the focus on what makes you vote yes, what we need to vote yes, and I'm in. I'm just not selling the next three years of my pay without a plan.
Simple fact the company is making more profit than any other time in their history.
Simple fact when concessions and quality of life items are given up, they either never come back or there is a muddy, bloody slog to get them back.
Quality of life items are used to increase some pilots time off with their families and other pilots use them to increase their pay. Either way, it's money in the pockets of pilots.
Your approach of looking only at pay rates IMO is shortsighted. Additionally, your view of the importance of QOL items and their disposability says to me that you do not value the gains brought by others who went ahead of you.
My opinion only, you appear to believe that the company will do what is your best interest as far as business decisions are concerned. Maybe you would be happier with what JetBlue had before the voted in Alpa.
Flying to the FAR maximums to increase pay isn't a pace that too many can keep up with for too long before it takes a toll on them.
06-19-2015 | 04:55 AM
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I was a no vote.over the loss of profit sharing. That was and has been my only issue. I agree, why not the pay raise with profit sharing. The bigger issue with voting no now is that the no voters are all over the map.
JV scope:I don't agree that pilots need to get involved in airline business decisions. The company has proven that they will make their decisions regardless of our negotiated JV anyway, and pay us the 1.5% of salary penalty in the grievance. $30 million spread over 12,500 pilots is a waste of negotiating capital.
Sick: there are no changes that prevent me from calling in "mentally sick" less than 14 days. Over 14 days I'll be fully medically sick, and clearly verifiable. Providing the charts for the illness to the Delta doctor does not scare me. I had to do this already once before for disability. If Delta is going to pay me to get well, they can have whatever verification they need. The added disability account offsets any inconvenience for me, I simply go to work when I am healthy, and I don't when I am not.
FO OE trip buy: this is a benefit for the few, not the rest of us. I'd rather have our company doing better overall than paying guys to not go to work. My top priority is to hand other airlines their assess, and we can't do that without going to work.
My issue is with the loss of profit share. If we had a group largely focused on that single item, I world join the galvanizing force. Unfortunately we don't. We have a group that is simply angry with everything. I can't join that. If the company wants to decrease profit sharing so they can reduce it company wide, then add 6% to my defined benefit plan, but don't take it from my pay raise! Unfortunately, I'm on an island.
JV scope:I don't agree that pilots need to get involved in airline business decisions. The company has proven that they will make their decisions regardless of our negotiated JV anyway, and pay us the 1.5% of salary penalty in the grievance. $30 million spread over 12,500 pilots is a waste of negotiating capital.
Sick: there are no changes that prevent me from calling in "mentally sick" less than 14 days. Over 14 days I'll be fully medically sick, and clearly verifiable. Providing the charts for the illness to the Delta doctor does not scare me. I had to do this already once before for disability. If Delta is going to pay me to get well, they can have whatever verification they need. The added disability account offsets any inconvenience for me, I simply go to work when I am healthy, and I don't when I am not.
FO OE trip buy: this is a benefit for the few, not the rest of us. I'd rather have our company doing better overall than paying guys to not go to work. My top priority is to hand other airlines their assess, and we can't do that without going to work.
My issue is with the loss of profit share. If we had a group largely focused on that single item, I world join the galvanizing force. Unfortunately we don't. We have a group that is simply angry with everything. I can't join that. If the company wants to decrease profit sharing so they can reduce it company wide, then add 6% to my defined benefit plan, but don't take it from my pay raise! Unfortunately, I'm on an island.
06-19-2015 | 05:42 AM
Otto
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Turkish Pile Driver
1. bid up in pay rate -- most of them could be FOs or even captains on much better paying equipment. The category they leave sees no benefit to them leaving since the trip goes into the LCA void, the category they move to sees a relative loss of seniority for every pilot below them.
2. stay where they are (and I find this unlikely unless they are seat locked) - in this case everybody in that category takes a seniority loss directly proportional to the number of LCA trips per month. If a category has 10 LCAs, that equates to 7-8 lines (probably very good lines) that basically just disappeared into the ether. That means less hiring required and more people available for reserve.
06-19-2015 | 06:09 AM
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I was a no vote.over the loss of profit sharing. That was and has been my only issue. I agree, why not the pay raise with profit sharing. The bigger issue with voting no now is that the no voters are all over the map.
JV scope:I don't agree that pilots need to get involved in airline business decisions. The company has proven that they will make their decisions regardless of our negotiated JV anyway, and pay us the 1.5% of salary penalty in the grievance. $30 million spread over 12,500 pilots is a waste of negotiating capital.
Sick: there are no changes that prevent me from calling in "mentally sick" less than 14 days. Over 14 days I'll be fully medically sick, and clearly verifiable. Providing the charts for the illness to the Delta doctor does not scare me. I had to do this already once before for disability. If Delta is going to pay me to get well, they can have whatever verification they need. The added disability account offsets any inconvenience for me, I simply go to work when I am healthy, and I don't when I am not.
FO OE trip buy: this is a benefit for the few, not the rest of us. I'd rather have our company doing better overall than paying guys to not go to work. My top priority is to hand other airlines their assess, and we can't do that without going to work.
My issue is with the loss of profit share. If we had a group largely focused on that single item, I world join the galvanizing force. Unfortunately we don't. We have a group that is simply angry with everything. I can't join that. If the company wants to decrease profit sharing so they can reduce it company wide, then add 6% to my defined benefit plan, but don't take it from my pay raise! Unfortunately, I'm on an island.
JV scope:I don't agree that pilots need to get involved in airline business decisions. The company has proven that they will make their decisions regardless of our negotiated JV anyway, and pay us the 1.5% of salary penalty in the grievance. $30 million spread over 12,500 pilots is a waste of negotiating capital.
Sick: there are no changes that prevent me from calling in "mentally sick" less than 14 days. Over 14 days I'll be fully medically sick, and clearly verifiable. Providing the charts for the illness to the Delta doctor does not scare me. I had to do this already once before for disability. If Delta is going to pay me to get well, they can have whatever verification they need. The added disability account offsets any inconvenience for me, I simply go to work when I am healthy, and I don't when I am not.
FO OE trip buy: this is a benefit for the few, not the rest of us. I'd rather have our company doing better overall than paying guys to not go to work. My top priority is to hand other airlines their assess, and we can't do that without going to work.
My issue is with the loss of profit share. If we had a group largely focused on that single item, I world join the galvanizing force. Unfortunately we don't. We have a group that is simply angry with everything. I can't join that. If the company wants to decrease profit sharing so they can reduce it company wide, then add 6% to my defined benefit plan, but don't take it from my pay raise! Unfortunately, I'm on an island.
Sick leave... If you have a issue for 14 days and then go back to work you CANNOT verify it. Then if you take a "mental day" or even a simple head cold you HAVE to verify it. even if it is 11 months later. It isn't scary, its a waste of everyone's time to verify a head cold.
FO OE trips. This affects ALL First officers, not just the few who get the LCA trips. This removes somewhere around 10% of trips (And usually pretty senior trips) from the pool of options. Now these good trips are going to newhires while people on the bottom of the line/reserve threshold are being forced to reserve, and people who could hold trips over weekdays and non holidays are no longer able to hold those. This affects each and every first officer.
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