If since the merger DL "barely tolerates" MSP, how would you describe it's stance wrt CVG?

This ought to be good. Drank, put some thought into your answer.

I wonder what the bugs doctor would do with that analogy..

CVG is the uncle with greasy hair who always seems to be fishing for loose change in his pants pocket outside the bathroom after you shower.

One day, the uncle disappears. Your parents tell you he got a new job in Atlanta. But you sometimes overhear them talking--something about your uncle getting into trouble in a boys locker room, and his new roommate named Bubba. Then you notice that video camera you saw your uncle buy at Radio Shack a while back is set up in your bedroom.

Will he be around in 18-24 months, or have you seen the last of him?

Purple,

This below..is the truth. Don't give management any side letters. The Pilot shortage is real, and the company is gonna learn the hard way when the dwindling number of candidates don't want to go to Delta to fly on a B Scale. At least if United gets their 100 seaters, their young pilots will still be able to fly a 777 or 787/350 if they want to....not at Delta. All of Delta's JV partners do the majority of that.



If Management pushes back at all on our recent counter-proposal, we should sit back and wait.

C2012 is far worse for Management than for us. No LOAs or partial givebacks! Make Delta fix all our contract issues before we settle the small things!

For starters: C2012 E190 pay is huge leverage for us. It doesn't affect anyone currently on the seniority list, but it hurts Delta tremendously. Our recent counter-proposal brings E190 rates up to match B717. If Management doesn't accept the counter, we should let them stew over all the bad things in C2012 a while.

Delta will interview potential New Hires in the next few months who will likely go to the E190. What will these pilot candidates do when comparing E190 pay rates with FEDEX, SWA and United? Delta needs to offer better New Hire pay to attract pilots.

The training churn on the E190 will be incredible considering each New Hire gets a minimum raise of $26/hour on any other Delta aircraft on the second year. C2012 has a 1-year seat freeze and first year pay is the same for all Delta New Hires. Delta will train its New Hires twice in their first 14 months at the company.

Where will Delta get its Captains for the E190? Probably from 2-3 year hires. Compare F/O pay at 3 years on the ER to 3 year CA on E190: 17 cents per hour difference! 7ER F/O pay increases more each year than E190 CA pay. Unless your ego requires you to fly left seat, there's not much reason to bid CA on E190. By the sixth year, even the A319 F/O is within $2/hour of E190 CA pay. I would expect the turnover on the E190 CA seat will also be pretty high under C2012 pay rates.

Should we fix the E190 pay rates? Before you say "Yes, it's the right thing to do for our fellow pilots..." consider what Management thinks. They desperately need to fix these pay rates. They can't without our concurrence. It's already in the PWA; they have to get our agreement.

I say let Management stew in this training quagmire a while and see if they don't come to us asking for relief. It's the order that we should do things: first, get pilot compensation back up to restoration levels of 11.5% of revenue; second, fix the BS things in the PWA affecting QOL using that 11.5% of revenue; third, fix other issues that Management wants (like raising E190 pay rates). Management's wants go last.

Purple,

This below..is the truth. Don't give management any side letters. The Pilot shortage is real, and the company is gonna learn the hard way when the dwindling number of candidates don't want to go to Delta to fly on a B Scale. At least if United gets their 100 seaters, their young pilots will still be able to fly a 777 or 787/350 if they want to....not at Delta. All of Delta's JV partners do the majority of that.



If Management pushes back at all on our recent counter-proposal, we should sit back and wait.

C2012 is far worse for Management than for us. No LOAs or partial givebacks! Make Delta fix all our contract issues before we settle the small things!

For starters: C2012 E190 pay is huge leverage for us. It doesn't affect anyone currently on the seniority list, but it hurts Delta tremendously. Our recent counter-proposal brings E190 rates up to match B717. If Management doesn't accept the counter, we should let them stew over all the bad things in C2012 a while.

Delta will interview potential New Hires in the next few months who will likely go to the E190. What will these pilot candidates do when comparing E190 pay rates with FEDEX, SWA and United? Delta needs to offer better New Hire pay to attract pilots.

The training churn on the E190 will be incredible considering each New Hire gets a minimum raise of $26/hour on any other Delta aircraft on the second year. C2012 has a 1-year seat freeze and first year pay is the same for all Delta New Hires. Delta will train its New Hires twice in their first 14 months at the company.

Where will Delta get its Captains for the E190? Probably from 2-3 year hires. Compare F/O pay at 3 years on the ER to 3 year CA on E190: 17 cents per hour difference! 7ER F/O pay increases more each year than E190 CA pay. Unless your ego requires you to fly left seat, there's not much reason to bid CA on E190. By the sixth year, even the A319 F/O is within $2/hour of E190 CA pay. I would expect the turnover on the E190 CA seat will also be pretty high under C2012 pay rates.

Should we fix the E190 pay rates? Before you say "Yes, it's the right thing to do for our fellow pilots..." consider what Management thinks. They desperately need to fix these pay rates. They can't without our concurrence. It's already in the PWA; they have to get our agreement.

I say let Management stew in this training quagmire a while and see if they don't come to us asking for relief. It's the order that we should do things: first, get pilot compensation back up to restoration levels of 11.5% of revenue; second, fix the BS things in the PWA affecting QOL using that 11.5% of revenue; third, fix other issues that Management wants (like raising E190 pay rates). Management's wants go last.

PD,
I don't always agree with you on union politics, but you just won the internets for tonight! Well played sir! Well played indeed!

If I may though, the use of visual aids to illustrate the difference would've really put it over the top. I suggest a perusal of Jesse's old posts for some inspiration.

So they never grow out of the non cleaning "phase" and her "diet" won't work?

I hear you. But best to use this leverage in negotiations toward a new TA, right? Because otherwise this would mean a union fighting an effort of the company to RAISE pay rates without any attached quid pro quo. I mean, talk about the antithesis of what a union is supposed to do for its members, right? Couple that with a union that doesn't even use the more logical leverage it had when our PWA disagreed with a FAR 117 and SD says, "Ehh, your silly PWA doesn't matter because I say so." So hopefully the idea of letting the E190 rate being addressed via a LOA is short lived.

The best option in my opinion would for the MEC to say, Yes--we want to bring those rates up too, but it's going to be in section 6 negotiations. With that you get more leverage to get a contract done that's not riddled with concessions and meets what is needed. Pretty much what you're saying, if I read you correctly.

Back in the mid 90s, when we had Delta Express, you had guys with one year holding captain and all new hires in the right seat. Never seemed to be a problem back then.

I think the 190 should pay the same as the 717, but I doubt management is losing any sleep over staffing the category.