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Old 09-19-2017 | 06:12 PM
  #193321  
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Originally Posted by TED74
They can make any argument they'd like. Anecdotally, the data would seem to show that it didn't use to be so much a part of the job. More and more pilots are (I believe) hitting 7 SCs a month.

Fact is, retirements increase significantly over the next two contracts and we have the leverage (should we choose to use it smartly).

I have personally noticed this also - in 18 years I never maxed out on SC ever until this May. Now every single day on reserve that I am not assigned a trip the day prior it is automatic SC.

It would seem that scheduling has changed their SC assignment philosophy since some of our guys were (pick one) accused/caught of not being in position for SC. So a few guys go rouge and 13K + Pilots pay the price.

Scoop
Old 09-19-2017 | 06:51 PM
  #193322  
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane
You are not telling the whole story here. As you point out, one can technically be flown to a max of guarantee +17...........but, once one's credit reaches or exceeds the reserve guarantee by that max of +17 (at the conclusion of a trip), s/he is no longer available. It doesn't matter if it's by 0 minutes or 17 hours.

It's a big window that should be smaller.........but it is a window. I would say a 10 hour window should be flexible enough for the company.

Denny
Have you personally ever been assigned flying into the ALV +15 window?
Old 09-19-2017 | 06:55 PM
  #193323  
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Originally Posted by Scoop
I have personally noticed this also - in 18 years I never maxed out on SC ever until this May. Now every single day on reserve that I am not assigned a trip the day prior it is automatic SC.

It would seem that scheduling has changed their SC assignment philosophy since some of our guys were (pick one) accused/caught of not being in position for SC. So a few guys go rouge and 13K + Pilots pay the price.

Scoop
But....remember our old (pre-PBS) system where you were on "short-call" twice a day.
Old 09-19-2017 | 07:29 PM
  #193324  
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Originally Posted by FL370esq
But....remember our old (pre-PBS) system where you were on "short-call" twice a day.
Yep - I am reminded of it every single day that I am on reserve since every day is now a 12hr SC. OBTW - that went away before PBS - didn't it?

Scoop
Old 09-20-2017 | 05:10 AM
  #193325  
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Originally Posted by captkdobbs
Good idea, however I don't think that we could get them to agree to anything above guarantee as that would be an increase in cost. Their argument will be that SC is just part of the job.
That would just barely be industry standard. American gets 30 min above guarantee for every conversion to short call. United gets 1 hour above guarantee for every short call they're not used.

The company is out of control with their short call usage. It's now up to our negotiators to get us something that will deter the company from doing such things. Sure they won't WANT to give us that....see below.

Originally Posted by TED74
Fact is, retirements increase significantly over the next two contracts and we have the leverage (should we choose to use it smartly).
Old 09-20-2017 | 06:57 AM
  #193326  
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Originally Posted by crewdawg
That would just barely be industry standard. American gets 30 min above guarantee for every conversion to short call. United gets 1 hour above guarantee for every short call they're not used.

The company is out of control with their short call usage. It's now up to our negotiators to get us something that will deter the company from doing such things. Sure they won't WANT to give us that....see below.
Originally Posted by TED74
Fact is, retirements increase significantly over the next two contracts and we have the leverage (should we choose to use it smartly).
I did not know that about AA and UA contract. That detail changes my mind.

This is exactly the type of detail comparison we should be doing prior to exchanging openers next year. Anything that ANY carrier has that is better than our current book should be in our opener. Negotiation strategy 101 says that you ask (within reason) above what you expect to end up getting. If other carriers have something in their book, I'd say it is within reason to ask for the same or a little bit more.

Of course, once negotiations start, the NC needs to focus on the polling data and the voice of the membership for the end result, but in this negotiations/economic/retirement environment we should shoot for the moon as every contract negotiation following ours will try (and possibly succeed) to one-up us.
Old 09-20-2017 | 07:01 AM
  #193327  
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Other items I've heard of:
Extra pay for middle-seat deadheads.
FC deadheads for flights over X-hours
Crew meals (more realistic rules)

What else are others getting that we are not?

This is not meant to be a whining post, I'm just trying to get us all thinking of how much better it COULD be.
Old 09-20-2017 | 08:00 AM
  #193328  
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Originally Posted by captkdobbs
I did not know that about AA and UA contract. That detail changes my mind.

This is exactly the type of detail comparison we should be doing prior to exchanging openers next year. Anything that ANY carrier has that is better than our current book should be in our opener. Negotiation strategy 101 says that you ask (within reason) above what you expect to end up getting. If other carriers have something in their book, I'd say it is within reason to ask for the same or a little bit more.

Of course, once negotiations start, the NC needs to focus on the polling data and the voice of the membership for the end result, but in this negotiations/economic/retirement environment we should shoot for the moon as every contract negotiation following ours will try (and possibly succeed) to one-up us.


I believe that we do conduct in-depth comparisons every section 6 and its gets released as a contract comparison booklet. I have found these very helpful.

The problem is we (DALPA) seems to take management negotiation statements as facts written in stone, for example:

"There is no more money on the table."
"If you don't sign this (Crappy - Think TA-15) deal the next will be worse."

Well, no crap, what do we expect someone to say in negotiations?

It almost seems as if DALPA is waiting for something like this:

"This is our current offer, if you reject it we will substantially sweeten the pot."

There are multiple reasons for this, I will hit two, including the timing of section 6. It seems we were always leading the pack doing the heavy lifting. This is a bummer because we slug it out with management, trade and negotiate for every gain and then UAL and AMR come along and get bumped up without giving up squat. Well this time UAL is up first. Go get em UAL!

Secondly for whatever reason we have an aversion to professional negotiators. I really think we should look very long and closely about changing this policy.

With all that said I voted yes for TA-16, after strongly opposing TA-15 so maybe DALPA is learning.

Scoop
Old 09-20-2017 | 08:38 AM
  #193329  
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Originally Posted by Scoop
"This is our current offer, if you reject it we will substantially sweeten the pot."
A veteran negotiator once explained: "They bring in a pot of money, but won't reveal how much is inside. Your job is to get all of it, or else they will take the remainder back to the office and split it among themselves."
Old 09-20-2017 | 08:47 AM
  #193330  
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Originally Posted by Scoop
I believe that we do conduct in-depth comparisons every section 6 and its gets released as a contract comparison booklet. I have found these very helpful.

The problem is we (DALPA) seems to take management negotiation statements as facts written in stone, for example:

"There is no more money on the table."
"If you don't sign this (Crappy - Think TA-15) deal the next will be worse."

Well, no crap, what do we expect someone to say in negotiations?

It almost seems as if DALPA is waiting for something like this:

"This is our current offer, if you reject it we will substantially sweeten the pot."

There are multiple reasons for this, I will hit two, including the timing of section 6. It seems we were always leading the pack doing the heavy lifting. This is a bummer because we slug it out with management, trade and negotiate for every gain and then UAL and AMR come along and get bumped up without giving up squat. Well this time UAL is up first. Go get em UAL!

Secondly for whatever reason we have an aversion to professional negotiators. I really think we should look very long and closely about changing this policy.

With all that said I voted yes for TA-16, after strongly opposing TA-15 so maybe DALPA is learning.

Scoop
I wonder how many of the porcshe guys hav some delta pilot bud working on their 100k rides?

Yet we hav exactly that going on with a multi million dollar career. Lol!
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