The letter was a nice summary of events. Very useful for those who haven't been following along. But can you point out one sentence in that letter that told us anything we didn't already know?

Just sayin'.

I'm not complaining too loudly about the lack of communication on the JAL deal. Its understandable when the ball is really in Japan's court and the whole issue is so political. Discretion is required. Especially given the cultural factors.
I just hope that when JAL and the Japanese government finally make their decision and the proposed terms of our relationship with them become more clear, that the MEC will then inform the pilot group of any changes to our PWA before they ratify them.
We deserve the right to provide input to our reps before any MEC vote on something this significant.

That's why a Special MEC Meeting with no published agenda makes people nervous.
Hopefully its just an "update" and not a contractual fait accompli.

In regards to guys building time in "RJs" complaining about scope,

The solid majority of us had no option but to fly an "RJ" when starting out in this industry. My company only had Rjs's. As far as perspective and "hypocrisy" goes, sure we built our time in said airplanes that the major pilots gave up (whether forced or just to good to fly), but that perspective has also shown us first hand how much flying was outsourced. My company used to fly the lions share of domestic routes for Continental. I didnt get into this career to fly RJs for mediocre pay which is why i got out as soon as possible. The unfortunate reality is that todays entry point is into a RJ. LIke you said its timing, when you started the regionals were also doing flying that the majors couldve been doing but was outsourced, the difference is that your regional experience had evolved into the mess it is today. What you did at your regional is no different to what todays generation of pilots have done. Point is that you have to start somewhere and you're making it out like nobody should complain about scope if you werent born into a narrowbody aircraft? i dont know anyone who just started their career into a mainline aircraft ;). I wish that was the case and i think thats the goal of the majority of us "scope hawks" though.

My time at the regionals was spent trying to get my time and get out. Most of us werent there fighting for bigger planes. Those guys are out there and I saw it all the time. A lot of the "lifers" at the regionals have realized the only way to get a payraise is to get a bigger plane and they try to spin that to their FO's by telling them that they should want more flying and bigger planes so that they can upgrade quicker and move on. That thinking is the mentality i think youre suggesting those of us "scope hawks" had and thats not the case.

I would have loved nothing more than to start out in a prop and then move up to a bigger plane at the majors but the fact is that MOST regionals dont even had props anymore. Those that do, pay horrible compared to the other regionals (which isnt great either but its better than the prop jobs).

We've seen first hand how the RJ's have taken over too much flying and its time that the Majors get that flying back or stop the scope erosion. Had there been more SCOPE HAWKS in the past than we wouldnt even be talking about this subject and the flying may not have been lost. We need to push for less lower paying RJ jobs and more higher paying narrowbody mainline jobs. Doing this would bring our profession and the earning potential up for all pilots moving forward.

BTW, Do you think its a bad thing to have more people fighting for Scope issues? It seems silly to try and quite guys making the most noise about scope if you agree scope should be fixed. Are you saying that anyone who's ever flown at a regional shouldnt fight for scope protections? You said you flew for a regional so is it hypocritical for you yourself to fight for scope? I mean even the majors flew props in past times?

<<<<<<<<<<SCOPE HAWK and previous regional guy ;)

The ultimate fix would be to have ALL flying done by the majors so that guys like us wouldnt have had to waste time at a lower paying job only to have to start over again when we moved up. Imagine what it would do for a pilots overall earnings if all flying was done under the major carriers brand?

Super,

I guess I should have come across a little different on my post. Seems that 33 hr layovers in the frozen tundra make me a little cranky. I agree that most pilots now have to fly RJ's or not fly 121 at all. Put me down as a fellow "Scope Hawk" I wish we flew them all too. I personally think that the 50 seater is just too long gone to recover, but we should be trying to regain control of any flying above that.

from yesterday on the other thread in regards to JAL ;)

not all crickets :D

I was very happy to see the communication from Moak. I think thats exactly what the majority of us want to see and hopefully that message is getting out there that we want better communication.

+1 for the MEC update!!

Not ironic at all if you understand the situation. Most of us loss about eight years of longevity while doing Delta flying for a division of Delta, Inc., or a subcontractor. Instead of two years at a regional, we got eight or nine.

Move my our pay 6 years to the left on the chart and note the difference. Oh' and how many Captain slots are gone? Oh' and Delta has around $26 BILLION still going out the door to satisfy the terms of agreements for services to these providers for the remaining duration of those contracts ... cash that needs to be invested in renewing the mainline fleet.

The cost to move the B scale off the property wasn't paid by those who sold the flying. The irony is that the cost will be paid by the next generation of those in our profession. More irony can be seen in the fact that pilots are the only workers at my airline that did not TRANSFER into their Delta jobs. Managers go back & forth, rampers & gate agents came over with longevity and a few pilots were already Delta employees in other divisions. You'd expect ALPA to fight for at least the same deal the guy who dumps the lav got, but no. (not complaining, just pointing out the silly nature of our scope which FACILITATES outsourcing of Delta flying).

(apologies for the improper use of "irony" but it just fit in the rant so much better)

Actually I don't think its ironic at all. Im a 2001 hire and also came from a regional airline. I also had to fly twin turboprops part 135 for a couple of years just to get hired at a regional. That's when we could fly 120 hours a month.

I think most regional guys can check off the box of 5, 6, and 7 legs a day for around $16,000 a year. Not much fun, but we did it to move on to better things. After my 5 year furlough, I've now seen stagnation at the bottom end of the seniority list. I typically work every holiday and almost every weekend and Im on the most junior equipment DAL S has.

All of that being said, allowing more outsourcing would only prolong my life here at the bottom of the list. The difference of being senior or junior in any category at Delta is HUGE in the quality of life department.

I don't chase $$$, Im all about time off and quality of life. That is why many of us Junior "Scope Hawks" are so passionate about not allowing further relaxation of our scope clause, it will only prolong our poor schedules and quality of life etc.

Nothing ironic about that.

I wouldn't have minded starting on a turboprop that was operated by a major, if scope clauses had not been relaxed.

I did, however, find great irony in the fact that I was allegedly a "commercial pilot" or an "airline transport pilot", when I opened my assistant night-shift manager paycheck.

The data on which to base optimistic reports
 

Starting to see some very positive trends in employment data. As I've written before, the foundation of Delta's business likely correlates well with US jobs data, even better than GDP.

... and ... To provide context, the number of online vacancies hit around 5 million during 2007 and shrunk to around 3 million during the recession's peak. Of course one month, or quarter, does not make a trend, but we are seeing that businesses realize they need more employees or else they risk not being able to meet customers' needs. That's bullish for a V shaped recovery instead of the L.

Bucking Bar (proof that I'm not always negative)

No problem, I agree with everything you said in the above. The point in my response was mainly because I'd just hate to see guys speaking up about scope feel that they should quiet down about it :eek:. We need all the noise we can get going forward. I do find it interesting though that the loudest hawks are from the regionals, and i believe thats because guys like us saw how much flying has been outsourced.

33 hours! DOH!! You could go ice fishing maybe ;)

Bar,
No apologiies neccessary, didn't sound like a rant at all, but a good rebuttal to what I had stated. Trust me, I do get it. Not too long ago I sat in my FO seat, flying with an over 60 guy in the left seat and a Compass guy on the jumpseat. Didn't have to look to far to realize where my career progression had gone.