Quick question for those in the "know" (a.k.a. ACL) regarding pay protection.

Looks like many will be losing their pay protection in this bid, myself included, so when exactly does one's pay revert back to his/her lower paying position?

Is it when the AE bid is released like it was yesterday and one can see what his/her seniority could have held?

Or is it when the pilot junior to you with the higher paying position converts through training?

NW was not Delta. They had a very static route system and basing situation unlike Delta. I don't think you would ever get marketing to commit to a system that required basing and flying forcasts on a monthly basis. Comparing the requirements and what is involved in staffing a airline from the old NW to the new Delta is not really valid. A monthly bid is basically unworkable when you have the degree of change we have going on. Its fine when you are replacing retired pilots and adding a few block hours here and there.

Close. It is when a pilot junior to you converts. Period.
22.12.4
A pilot who loses his 24.E.10. return rights 180 days after SOC will receive pay
protection under the following conditions:
a) The pilot will receive the difference between the payrate of the highest
position his seniority entitles him to hold and the payrate for the highest
paying position for which he lost his 24.E.10. return rights.
b) The pay protection will cease at the earlier of:
1) the conversion of a pilot junior to such pilot to a category with a payrate
which is equal to or higher than the payrate for the 24.E.10. category,
provided the award was the result of a vacancy posting awarded after
SOC, or
2) 36 bid periods plus 180 days following SOC.
Note: A pilot will not lose this pay protection if he was under a category
freeze incurred prior to SOC

That is a very salient point.

this is mandatory for those bidding NYC

YouTube - Newark State Of Mind - The Best Empire State of Mind Parody - - Jay-Z Alicia Keys

I'm not saying it needs to be done right away. After a year or two when the company has decided what aircraft are going to be based where, why not then. I don't see them changing their mind and constantly rebasing aircraft. Maybe then it could be considered.

Denny

I don't think it is. I think APA gives you an ability to be more flexible and would allow marketing to move quickly when necessary.





Ferd

Ferd, the company could publish an AE every month if they wanted to, meaning it would essentially mirror the old APA system as I understand it. So I'm not sure there is actually any more flexibility in the APA system than the current AE. Just my opinion, and I'm sure someone will come along soon and call me a pr1ck again just for stating it...:(

Ferd;
As I read it, Sailings point is that we by nature of what we are doing requires large shifts. His point that marketing may not want to commit like that is what is salient.

I have worked under an APA type system, and it looks four months out. With a shift as large and drastic as this, we would be in a lot of hurt with a a four month window. The AE system allows large fluctuation and changes that they are seeing in to late this year or next. Perfect? No, not at all, as we can see with all of the reinstatement bids. What this does though is allow anyone that was MD and reinstated a chance that they will not get converted from the old bid. Many of those pilots were not to train till later this year.

Under an APA type system the pilots are awarded then trained in a more near picture sort of scheme. The AE process allows them to plan training in the winter months, months out. APA would not allow that. They would be looking at Dec staffing in Aug. As we have seen that changes and it would result in many people training then converting again. AE awards allow a ton of flex.

I process in between would probably work best for all.

Come on man, it was just a shot across the bow. Can't we all just get along?

PG makes a good point. The APA system could also result in a constant training churn as well, I would think, and make training costs difficult to pin down. Flexibility always comes w/ a cost.

Back in 2007 when we were hiring full bore, there were AE's up pretty much quarterly as I remember.

I think a nice mid-point between AE's and APA might be allowing monthly bids and conversions for same equipment in the system in order to staff 'shoulder months' as SD likes to say, better depending on the base.