Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-30-2010 | 01:54 PM
Works Every Weekend
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From: 737 ATL
Rumor type stuff:
Talked to a kid at 31 Flavors whose Dad knows a guy that had a long layover conversation with one of our illustrious leaders.
Interesting to say the least.
This union guy doesn't think we will make it to the amendable date without some significant contract modifications. The incoming MEC administration has been very serious about going into "listening mode" and they will only intensify that effort in coming months. What they have heard so far though is pretty much unmistakable. The pilot group remains incredibly motivated and has been quietly carrying an enormous load the last couple years with pretty much no complaining. We have bought into "constructive engagement" while the corporate boys rebuild their finances. But we also expect that all this sacrifice will pay off reasonably quickly now that profitability has been restored. Mention the future and its like a "seething cauldron" with the level of frustration increasing daily. No progress toward contract restoration until 2013 or later is a recipe for a disaster in pilot morale. A major catalyst for that attitude -- the notion that a ValuJet 717 driver is going to be making more than our 777 captains is an embarassment that is really hitting home with even some of the die-hard old-time Widget lovers in Peachtree City.
This "official" doesn't think management will let that toxic brew of resentment build up unabated for another two or three years. Mgmt knows the pilot group has contributed mightily to the recovery of this corporation but bad stuff will inevitably start to happen to the operational statistics if the pilots were to, let's just say, suffer a serious loss of enthusiasm. No illegal concerted activity, just 12,000 p***ed off people turning the wheels instead of 12,000 motivated people.
He thinks early talks are a virtual certainty. The big question according to this guy is whether management will seek to move the amendable date in these early talks. They could address the short-term issues with small bites of the apple just big enough to keep the lid on things until Section 6 plays out or they could open up more of the book and do some bigger things but then of course ask for an extension of the amendable date.
DALPA is preparing for either eventuality but they will be very reluctant to move the amendable date without extensive opportunity for feedback, thorough debate, roadshows, all that..
Talked to a kid at 31 Flavors whose Dad knows a guy that had a long layover conversation with one of our illustrious leaders.
Interesting to say the least.
This union guy doesn't think we will make it to the amendable date without some significant contract modifications. The incoming MEC administration has been very serious about going into "listening mode" and they will only intensify that effort in coming months. What they have heard so far though is pretty much unmistakable. The pilot group remains incredibly motivated and has been quietly carrying an enormous load the last couple years with pretty much no complaining. We have bought into "constructive engagement" while the corporate boys rebuild their finances. But we also expect that all this sacrifice will pay off reasonably quickly now that profitability has been restored. Mention the future and its like a "seething cauldron" with the level of frustration increasing daily. No progress toward contract restoration until 2013 or later is a recipe for a disaster in pilot morale. A major catalyst for that attitude -- the notion that a ValuJet 717 driver is going to be making more than our 777 captains is an embarassment that is really hitting home with even some of the die-hard old-time Widget lovers in Peachtree City.
This "official" doesn't think management will let that toxic brew of resentment build up unabated for another two or three years. Mgmt knows the pilot group has contributed mightily to the recovery of this corporation but bad stuff will inevitably start to happen to the operational statistics if the pilots were to, let's just say, suffer a serious loss of enthusiasm. No illegal concerted activity, just 12,000 p***ed off people turning the wheels instead of 12,000 motivated people.
He thinks early talks are a virtual certainty. The big question according to this guy is whether management will seek to move the amendable date in these early talks. They could address the short-term issues with small bites of the apple just big enough to keep the lid on things until Section 6 plays out or they could open up more of the book and do some bigger things but then of course ask for an extension of the amendable date.
DALPA is preparing for either eventuality but they will be very reluctant to move the amendable date without extensive opportunity for feedback, thorough debate, roadshows, all that..
12-30-2010 | 02:08 PM
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Sounds as though someone is reading the "Latest and Greatest about Delta" thread over on APC. 
12-30-2010 | 02:47 PM
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From: 7ERB
12-30-2010 | 02:54 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
interesting post check.
save a penny spend a dollar or spend a penny and save a dollar... more or less on the last one. I've always been fascinated by management groups that bring out the stick prior to a contract and start poking guys in the eye when if you really want to seperate a group you should give in here and there and say we're here for you guys!
what i mean is if DAL wants to fix some stuff and start early, that's strategic and smart on their part.
among many things one thing we can hope, for pr and group cohesiveness reasons, will happen is a smooth contract with AAI and SWA and more pay raises for those "Valujet" DC9s with big engines.
save a penny spend a dollar or spend a penny and save a dollar... more or less on the last one. I've always been fascinated by management groups that bring out the stick prior to a contract and start poking guys in the eye when if you really want to seperate a group you should give in here and there and say we're here for you guys!
what i mean is if DAL wants to fix some stuff and start early, that's strategic and smart on their part.
among many things one thing we can hope, for pr and group cohesiveness reasons, will happen is a smooth contract with AAI and SWA and more pay raises for those "Valujet" DC9s with big engines.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 12-30-2010 at 03:20 PM. Reason: DC9 with big engines = Boeing designed 717 with RR engines
12-30-2010 | 03:16 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
It's easier to post this after "28-27" but Satch this is dedicated to you because seriously this is about as funny a commercial as I've seen. It's true, good comedy requires an element of truth and I guarantee that cop vs kid interaction has happened.
The dude at the wedding and the kids making out in the car are my favorites.
The dude at the wedding and the kids making out in the car are my favorites.
12-30-2010 | 03:25 PM
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From: 737n/FO
Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!! If there are pilots out there that want to fly 80+ hours/month then have at it. I'm more than happy to fly ALV or less (I usually put in min time for my bid) every month. I know I'm in the minority on this one - I don't mind high credit/long layover/low productivity trips. Also, I like the fact that we can fly as little as we want (no limit on dropping trips as long as there are reserves available - United requires a minimum of 55 hours/month for line holders - no exceptions). For guys that like SWA contract their reserves FLY a lot (no more one-two trips/month). I know reserves like to complain when they fly a lot BUT how about those one/two trip months. That being said, Reserve rules need some modification, especially some transparency on SC/LC availability/assignment criteria. It's possible I may be back on reserve one day and I think the WHOLE PWA needs to be good.
12-30-2010 | 03:37 PM
Back on TDY
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From: 747-400 Captain
Rumor type stuff:
Talked to a kid at 31 Flavors whose Dad knows a guy that had a long layover conversation with one of our illustrious leaders.
Interesting to say the least.
This union guy doesn't think we will make it to the amendable date without some significant contract modifications. The incoming MEC administration has been very serious about going into "listening mode" and they will only intensify that effort in coming months. What they have heard so far though is pretty much unmistakable. The pilot group remains incredibly motivated and has been quietly carrying an enormous load the last couple years with pretty much no complaining. We have bought into "constructive engagement" while the corporate boys rebuild their finances. But we also expect that all this sacrifice will pay off reasonably quickly now that profitability has been restored. Mention the future and its like a "seething cauldron" with the level of frustration increasing daily. No progress toward contract restoration until 2013 or later is a recipe for a disaster in pilot morale. A major catalyst for that attitude -- the notion that a ValuJet 717 driver is going to be making more than our 777 captains is an embarassment that is really hitting home with even some of the die-hard old-time Widget lovers in Peachtree City.
This "official" doesn't think management will let that toxic brew of resentment build up unabated for another two or three years. Mgmt knows the pilot group has contributed mightily to the recovery of this corporation but bad stuff will inevitably start to happen to the operational statistics if the pilots were to, let's just say, suffer a serious loss of enthusiasm. No illegal concerted activity, just 12,000 p***ed off people turning the wheels instead of 12,000 motivated people.
He thinks early talks are a virtual certainty. The big question according to this guy is whether management will seek to move the amendable date in these early talks. They could address the short-term issues with small bites of the apple just big enough to keep the lid on things until Section 6 plays out or they could open up more of the book and do some bigger things but then of course ask for an extension of the amendable date.
DALPA is preparing for either eventuality but they will be very reluctant to move the amendable date without extensive opportunity for feedback, thorough debate, roadshows, all that..
Talked to a kid at 31 Flavors whose Dad knows a guy that had a long layover conversation with one of our illustrious leaders.
Interesting to say the least.
This union guy doesn't think we will make it to the amendable date without some significant contract modifications. The incoming MEC administration has been very serious about going into "listening mode" and they will only intensify that effort in coming months. What they have heard so far though is pretty much unmistakable. The pilot group remains incredibly motivated and has been quietly carrying an enormous load the last couple years with pretty much no complaining. We have bought into "constructive engagement" while the corporate boys rebuild their finances. But we also expect that all this sacrifice will pay off reasonably quickly now that profitability has been restored. Mention the future and its like a "seething cauldron" with the level of frustration increasing daily. No progress toward contract restoration until 2013 or later is a recipe for a disaster in pilot morale. A major catalyst for that attitude -- the notion that a ValuJet 717 driver is going to be making more than our 777 captains is an embarassment that is really hitting home with even some of the die-hard old-time Widget lovers in Peachtree City.
This "official" doesn't think management will let that toxic brew of resentment build up unabated for another two or three years. Mgmt knows the pilot group has contributed mightily to the recovery of this corporation but bad stuff will inevitably start to happen to the operational statistics if the pilots were to, let's just say, suffer a serious loss of enthusiasm. No illegal concerted activity, just 12,000 p***ed off people turning the wheels instead of 12,000 motivated people.
He thinks early talks are a virtual certainty. The big question according to this guy is whether management will seek to move the amendable date in these early talks. They could address the short-term issues with small bites of the apple just big enough to keep the lid on things until Section 6 plays out or they could open up more of the book and do some bigger things but then of course ask for an extension of the amendable date.
DALPA is preparing for either eventuality but they will be very reluctant to move the amendable date without extensive opportunity for feedback, thorough debate, roadshows, all that..
If our little community here is an accurate polling sample, management had better be dusting off the checkbook.
Carl
12-30-2010 | 04:43 PM
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From: SEA7ERB
My buddy there made $190K this year, working as a FO that picks up captain trips.
Another myth is that swa guys work a crap load more, he has averaged 700 hours of hard time or less for the last 10 years. And he picks up plenty.
Just saying, when he goes to work yes he does multiple legs and 20 minute turns, but it the end of the year it's no where near 1000 hours like people think.
Another myth is that swa guys work a crap load more, he has averaged 700 hours of hard time or less for the last 10 years. And he picks up plenty.
Just saying, when he goes to work yes he does multiple legs and 20 minute turns, but it the end of the year it's no where near 1000 hours like people think.
12-30-2010 | 04:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
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From: DAL 330
Just to go back a little bit the question really is the current system vs a 1.5>80 system moving forward.
The overall big picture is for many of us we would not want a system that would decrease the need for current pilots below the current level.
I just thought about looking at one mature category to compare and picked the 320 in MSP. There are 546 pilots. 320 are Captains with 288 regular line holders and 32 on reserve with an ALV of 72 in Jan. FO's come in at 291 with 258 regular and 33 on reserve with an ALV of 77 in Jan.
Now right there you can see... oh btw I'm talking out my butt because I am such an outsider to the "system" it's not funny... but there are 29 fewer FO's flying the same trips thus by increasing the ALV by 5 hours you equal out the 29 pilot difference.
Another words, 5 more hours on the ALV decreased the need for pilots by nearly 30. Increase it by 15 hours and you've got 90 A320 guys that are not needed on the line holders alone.
So if you remove the ALV and have a system that encourages pilots to fly more for $$ and the ALV would probably find itself at say 83 hours (equals average month with FAA max of 1000 hours a year) and that would mean about 60 pilots less are needed on MSP320. That's 10% fewer than currently exist and take that system wide that's 1000 pilots (working off the 10,500 line flying pilots not the 12000 number) assuming reserve levels stay at the same numbers and not just a percentage.
Right or wrong about those numbers, just eyeballing it I don't want to see any more "efficiency" in the staffing numbers for a lot of reasons from the MD's it'd create in every category to the inability of the company to remotely handle even a minor IROPS to the detriment of the airline and us. Sometimes you have to have people, you just do.
The money should come from the pay tables and while it may for senior pilots not be as lucrative as 1.5>80 system I can live with that.
The overall big picture is for many of us we would not want a system that would decrease the need for current pilots below the current level.
I just thought about looking at one mature category to compare and picked the 320 in MSP. There are 546 pilots. 320 are Captains with 288 regular line holders and 32 on reserve with an ALV of 72 in Jan. FO's come in at 291 with 258 regular and 33 on reserve with an ALV of 77 in Jan.
Now right there you can see... oh btw I'm talking out my butt because I am such an outsider to the "system" it's not funny... but there are 29 fewer FO's flying the same trips thus by increasing the ALV by 5 hours you equal out the 29 pilot difference.
Another words, 5 more hours on the ALV decreased the need for pilots by nearly 30. Increase it by 15 hours and you've got 90 A320 guys that are not needed on the line holders alone.
So if you remove the ALV and have a system that encourages pilots to fly more for $$ and the ALV would probably find itself at say 83 hours (equals average month with FAA max of 1000 hours a year) and that would mean about 60 pilots less are needed on MSP320. That's 10% fewer than currently exist and take that system wide that's 1000 pilots (working off the 10,500 line flying pilots not the 12000 number) assuming reserve levels stay at the same numbers and not just a percentage.
Right or wrong about those numbers, just eyeballing it I don't want to see any more "efficiency" in the staffing numbers for a lot of reasons from the MD's it'd create in every category to the inability of the company to remotely handle even a minor IROPS to the detriment of the airline and us. Sometimes you have to have people, you just do.
The money should come from the pay tables and while it may for senior pilots not be as lucrative as 1.5>80 system I can live with that.
Scoop - Happy New Year ALL!
12-30-2010 | 05:06 PM
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From: 737 Capt
NWA used to have a system of 80 hrs max a month. You couldn't pick up anything that would put you over 80 and no line was constructed that was over 80. If you over flew the 80 or less you were scheduled for you could go to a max of 82.5, anything over that and you had to drop something. Any time/credit you actually flew between 80-82.5 was put into a bank that paid out when your line was below the 80 max.
This was a great system as it kept guys form hoaring themselves out for $$. But that was also when we made a lot more money, had better work rules, and a pension.
Based on current rules it would be nice to see 1.5 above 80 + keep the GS option. But what would really be nice would be paid a rate that allows guys to not have to hoar themselves out.
This was a great system as it kept guys form hoaring themselves out for $$. But that was also when we made a lot more money, had better work rules, and a pension.
Based on current rules it would be nice to see 1.5 above 80 + keep the GS option. But what would really be nice would be paid a rate that allows guys to not have to hoar themselves out.
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