|
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1032017)
Interesting thing is though, will NATIONAL do anything if the ATI guys vote this down, and are subsequently parted out by SWA? This is huge IMHO, because SWA has devised an end around for what should be a fair merger of equals. (regardless of what the SWA guys think) I'm betting that ALPA will say too bad so sad, and then you will owe the Charitable fund $100 bucks.
(How's that for mediation?) Having said that, to call SWA and AirTran "equals" is to deny reality. They fly the same airplanes, generally, but that's where the equality stops. I still don't think the current SLI proposal is fair, but I'm not an AirTran pilot. They will get to decide that for themselves. |
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
(Post 1032011)
Scambo, you are right, and I still believe what we privately discussed is fair -- much more fair than what I've seen is going to be the final SLI.
BUT... that doesn't mean ALPA National influenced this to SWAPA's advantage. What it DOES mean, is that SWAPA is (again) showing their true colors as they have in all previous mergers. They have a pilot group that mirrors the AMR group in self-centeredness to screw the merging pilots. |
Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1032017)
Interesting thing is though, will NATIONAL do anything if the ATI guys vote this down, and are subsequently parted out by SWA? This is huge IMHO, because SWA has devised an end around for what should be a fair merger of equals. (regardless of what the SWA guys think) I'm betting that ALPA will say too bad so sad, and then you will owe the Charitable fund $100 bucks.
(How's that for mediation?) |
Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1032019)
PG;
I'm NOT going to let you hide behind ALPA natl's little blurb in their merger policy where they say they are a neutral. Its a one liner. The SW group is extorting seniority here from AT. I have said all along that this sli was the test of ALPA's relevance. If this is the joint position that will get sent to the pilots for a vote, I have to ask you or anyone; what is the point of having ALPA at all? aeromedical? (Which I beleive is getting spun off). If alpa allows its pilot groups to be held at gunpoint and robbed by a little union that has "never raised the bar on anything" how can anyone say alpa is worth even having around. McFly... ALPA can't make a relative seniority integration (or whatever anyone on this board deems is fair) happen. If the best legal minds say taking the current proposal to arbitration is the best approach, I would fully expect ALPA national to recommend that; if on the other hand, those same minds say that the risks outweigh the potential benefits, I would expect them to say that too. Then the AirTran pilots get to decide. The fundamental difference between those involved in ALPA (at all levels, from pilots to lawyers, to other professionals) and those who post on this forum, is that ALPA has a responsibility to make judgements in the world we all live in; not the one we want to live in. Meaning, often times, a partial win is better than a swing for the fences and quite likely strike out. Whereas on this board, it is always easy to say you should swing for the fences, because that path is seldom taken, and so the strike outs never materialize. But when they do, the pain far exceeds that of a partial win. One need look no further than APA and USAPA to see that. |
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
(Post 1032021)
I bet if DAL bought an AT size/scale carrier many here would consider that a fair SLI :cool:
|
Originally Posted by scambo1
(Post 1031865)
That is my understanding as well. Therefore, I have a couple of comments and then a rant.
Comment #1: Pineapple Guy, you owe the DPMA $100. Comment #2: ALPA threw Airtran under the bus. Rant: Airtran entered this sli with (argueably) quite or extremely strong merger/ fragmentation language, written by "the greatest aviation lawyers" known to mankind. ALPA (undoubtedly) threw their finest negotiators at the SLI problem on Air Tran's behalf (including experienced Delta pilot negotiators on FPL). The largest Airline pilot union in the world, where its president has to get an oil portrait painted, took on a union with none of ALPA's (significant) resources..."who have never set the bar for the rest of the industry", and the Air Tran pilots were presented with an absolute screwjob of an SLI...because "it was the best we could do?" You have go to be absolutely $h1tting me ALPA...pathetic in the extreme. Apologists, if the ends do or dont justify the means, you cannot spin this to me positively. Waaah, their management was going to get involved. Waaah, ALPA just lost a DNR lawsuit. Waaah, We were outnumbered four to one. Waaah, We thought it was best to leave it up to the (grossly outnumbered) pilots to vote on. ALPA threw Air Tran under the bus. PERIOD! rant over. Once again, nice rant but wrong on the facts. Airtran's merger/fragmentation language was from their days as an independent union where they left themselves quite open. ALPA only negotiated a contract after the merger was announced and Airtran would have been barred from changing merger protections. I have said this many times and I will say it again, Section 1 covers more than RJ's and code shares. For instance, our Section 1 forces an acquiring carrier to continue to fly the same amount of block hours per year after the acquisition. Because Airtran's independent union had poor merger language, it is possible for SWA to operate them as an independent unit forever. They can also whittle away at their assets until there is nothing left of the carrier. SWA management threw Airtran pilots under the bus. They bought off their angry first officer club that is upset that they haven't upgraded in 5 years and that SWA's growth is stalled due to their higher cost structure. So SWA management treated the SWA pilots as real SWA pilots and the Airtran pilots as scum. Airtran approved this list in much the same way as if a mugger had a gun to my head I would approve of him taking my wallet. ALPA did everything they were asked to do. Please talk to the Airtran MEC and the Airtran Merger Committee, they will tell you first hand what ALPA did for them. Unfortunately, they were dealt a weak hand because they had a weak independent union that left them with weak merger protections. SWAPA and SWA management decided that there aren't enough Airtran pilots to ruin the culture at SWA so they put a gun to their head and said take this or else. The arrogance of SWA management and their pilots is once again on full display. Why would ALPA throw them under the bus? Give me the motive. No one even considers that SWAPA would join ALPA so you can't even come up with that weak excuse. Airtran had a TA with Airtran management about 5 or 6 years ago and the pilots voted it down. It will always get better if you vote no, right? Guess what, sometimes you dig your own grave. |
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
(Post 1032021)
I bet if DAL bought an AT size/scale carrier many here would consider that a fair SLI :cool:
|
removed by poster
|
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
(Post 1032020)
Good question - I guess we'll see. But if they do, I'll pony up the $100.
Having said that, to call SWA and AirTran "equals" is to deny reality. They fly the same airplanes, generally, but that's where the equality stops. I still don't think the current SLI proposal is fair, but I'm not an AirTran pilot. They will get to decide that for themselves. Oh please don't tell me that you are falling onto the side of "because our W2s are bigger... " crowd. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
(Post 1032021)
I bet if DAL bought an AT size/scale carrier many here would consider that a fair SLI :cool:
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:20 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands