Originally Posted by Scoop

Gloopy,


I basically agree with everything you say but "demanding" is not really a strategy. I will play devils advocate here:

DALPA passionately argues 1-7 above.

The company says we can only give you 15% up front and 3% per year for 4 years.

DALPA says but we "demand" more. See 1-7 above.

The company repeats, we can only give you 15% up front and 3% per year for 4 years.

RLA kicks in and the years roll by.


I repeat - I don't disagree with your reasoning - but we need more of a strategy than "demanding." I understand that you probably would not want to publicly lay out a proposed strategy on a public forum (Sun Tzu would not approve) but we all need to start about thinking about it.

Scoop

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Typical of your selective responses. Care to actually respond to what TheManager posted below that I've bolded?:



Are you saying that DALPA/ALPA has complied with the Council 20 FPL resolution on Flight Pay Loss?

Carl

Originally Posted by gloopy

I bet they will open with a paycut disguised as a raise. Something like "increases of up to 40%" which of course will only be 5ish% per year partial cost of living adjustments, a few minor improvements here and there, and a few net concessionary things here and there. They will then count on the media, watercooler talk among other employee groups and even pilot apologists to parrot the "40% raise" lie. This is basic freshman airline management 101 straight from their oldest playbook. As a bonus, doesn't RA does work with one of the federal reserve branches/board of governers? Either way, he knows very well how inflationatory policy is used as a hidden tax to siphon wealth away from those who earn it, retroactively and across the board.

This goes so far beyond "restoration" as a general concept or "back in my day you could buy a Cadillac with a month's pay" or whatever. Forget high water marks of a different era and let's take all the emotion like that out of it and focus on what we know to be reasonably true, right here, right now.

Is it absolutely essential that we:

1. take note of the full and complete increase in cost of living, which is far in excess of the bogus "official" CPI numbers which exclude food and energy, which are, by far, the biggest inflationary cost pressures to most of us when it comes to how much to look for in a COLA, therefore we MUST:

2. back that number OUT of any claim of a "raise" over the life of the agreement AND:

3. Demand instant SWA per pilot small narrowbody W-2 parity, plus a premium for our massive additional revenue and higher per pilot revenue, plus a premium for our massive scope relief for flat out whole product outsourcing, plus a premium for our massive code share partnership relief, plus a premium for widebody flying above all that in proportion.

4. Back out every penny at or below SWA per pilot W-2 from being in the same room as the word "raise" or "increase" especially "over the life of" nonsense. If it takes 35% to get SWA parity and on day one we get 40%, we got a 5% raise. If we get 5% per year for 5 years, that is, at best, a zero percent raise, as the trillions we are printing out of thin air, including compounded interest costs which are also being printed out of thin air, will at least equal that (and likely more). But we have to start with a number at some point, so a negative 5% erosion, compounder per year, at a minimum, should statistically be backed out of any and all "raise" claims in additon to backing out 100% of every penny it takes to just equal SWA.

5. Only discuss money in excess of SWA AND in excess of a coumpounded 5% per year as a "raise" both initially and over the live of C12K.

6. In the event that a company or union agreed upon offer, TA, proposal or even opener is less than above, it shall be referred to appropriately as a pay cut.

7. ALPA's esteemed EF&A needs to drastically recalculate its epic fail method of calculating/rationalizing positive "bargaining credits" for outsourcing to its proper metric, which is clearly a substantial negative wage and benefit pressure on a per pilot basis, which is the entire reason for outsourcing the core business of an airline to begin with when you give them relief in section one: to give management relief from sections 2 through infinity, which not only prevents jobs at YOUR airline/pilot group, but produces long lasting negative wage, benefit, retirement and work rule pressure at every level.

The hoodwinking is over for C12K. Partial COLA's are not raises. Partial restoration is not a raise. SWA parity is not a raise. SWA pay, SWA scope, premiums for widebody, premiums for our massive network/first class/travel infrastructure, SWA work rules at a minimum for narrowbody domestic (plus inprovement for reasons already mentioned) and once all of that is taken care of, then and only then can the "me too" nonsense even be allowed into the discussion. If the company says that is too expensive, the debate should automatically shift to the issue of management competency.

1. SWA pay
2. SWA scope
3. SWA profitability sure beats

1. outsource/shrink
2. ?
3. profits.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

The only way you will see either sides position is if the other side starts negotiating in public.

Originally Posted by tomgoodman

That has been known to happen. In the past, non-contract employees were warned that they would be harmed by the "greedy pilots'" demands. This action was immediately blamed on "overzealous" middle managers.

Originally Posted by shiznit

Well Carl, let's talk about selective responses, jeez! If Manager had mentioned LEC 20 FPL resolutions in the post I would have discussed it.

Oddly, you chose not to mention him hopping on the "rumor express" either, WHICH IS WHAT THE REFERENCED POSTS WERE DISCUSSING!!!

Grow up.

I'll be more than happy to oblige your question: No. I do not know for fact that the LEC 20 FPL resolution has been acted upon. I'm not a member of LEC 20. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that since you are a member of LEC 20 and you are asking me*, that you do not see the results of the LEC 20 FPL resolution status. Hey, I hope your LEC's resolution gets a big thumbs up and everyone gets to see the data. I have issues with guys who intentionally abuse the system. I don't have issues with guys who work 20-22 days a month and make a little bit more than "average pilot", (get rid of the seagulls though). I want the best people to WANT to do the job, and sometimes you gotta pay a little bit more to get the best.

What I do know is that there is a Fastread that just published the upcoming MEC meeting topics and the Compensation Review Committee is presenting its recommendations to the MEC. We'll know the results of that after the MEC meeting. Keep your powder dry until its time to use it Carl.

*someone you believe to be an ALPA cheerleader...(those that know me know that I have some real problems with ALPA in present form, hence my decision to get involved to try and affect changes).

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

So is this DPA vs DALPA stuff more or less raucous than the SLI conversations?

Originally Posted by Scoop

If you have X days on Saturday and Sunday what is the earliest report you can have on Monday? Would a golden day on Sunday make a difference?

Thanks Scoop