Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
11-04-2011 | 11:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Likes: 0
Lots of great things in your post. You however left out the most important part. How do you play hardball. Let me hear your suggestions as to what DALPA should do to play hardball. I don't mean the opener. DALPA can open for anything they want. What I mean is how do you produce a outcome within the bounds of the RLA and NMB. That is the key to everything yet never seems to be discussed here.
11-04-2011 | 11:59 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Bar I agree. I have been doing a ton of research on the AF JV and here is what I found.
We initially started out at 51.7% of the EASK's. The compliance band was 1.5% points in either side. When Alitalia was added, we went to 50-50. Not that big of a deal, and even with adding Alitalia we were in compliance. From what I can gather, we did not go out of compliance until March/April this year.
This is the language change.
We went from this language:
PWA 1P.4
4. The amount of flying subject to the AF JV flown by each partner will be determined from
a summer season baseline period commencing in the summer season immediately
preceding the full implementation date. All growth ASMs flown above the baseline
figure by the partners will be aggregated and shared between the partners on a 50/50
basis, subject to Section 1 P. 5.
5. Compliance will be measured for each summer season period, commencing at the end of
the first summer season following full implementation. If the Company’s share of the AF
JV growth ASMs above the baseline is at least 47% for the applicable summer season
period, the Company will be deemed in compliance with the growth ASM measurement
If the Company is not in compliance with the growth ASM measurement for any summer
season measurement period, the Company may cure any such breach by (within 90 days
after the date of written notification from the MEC Chairman to the Company of such
breach) increasing the number of Delta growth ASMs or decreasing the number of AF
growth ASMs at the beginning of the next summer season
to:
MOU 14
The baseline EASK allocations in the AF/KL/AZ JV agreement are 50% for DL and 50%
for AF/KL/AZ of the total EASK capacity. Section 1 P. 4. is updated to reflect such
adjustment. Effective with the three year measurement period ending on March 31, 2011
(including applicable AZ flying during the 12 month measurement period of April 1,
2010 to March 31, 2011 only), the Company shall maintain no less than 48.50% of the
EASK capacity share in this measurement period (Company’s baseline EASK allocation
minus 1.50%). A new three year rolling measurement period will begin April 1, 2011
and the actual capacity share percentages for all previous years will be disregarded for
capacity share measurement purposes. In the case of the rolling three year measurement
periods ending March 31, 2014, and thereafter, the Company shall be required to
maintain no less than 48.50% (Company’s baseline EASK allocation minus 1.50%) of the
total EASK capacity subject to the provisions of Section 1 P. 6.
In the first 12 month measurement period following March 31, 2010 (i.e., from each
April 1 to March 31 of the following calendar year), during which the Company’s EASK
capacity share is greater than or equal to 49.75%, a new three year rolling measurement
period will begin and the capacity share percentages for all previous years will be
disregarded for capacity share measurement purposes.
We went from a 12 month window to a rolling three year window. There was also a 90 day compliance period after the 12 month look back. Now, when they hit compliance within the band, a new three year period starts. There is no look back. As I read this, they need to only be in compliance for one reporting period every three years.
This was done by MOU number 14 in June of 2010.
We initially started out at 51.7% of the EASK's. The compliance band was 1.5% points in either side. When Alitalia was added, we went to 50-50. Not that big of a deal, and even with adding Alitalia we were in compliance. From what I can gather, we did not go out of compliance until March/April this year.
This is the language change.
We went from this language:
PWA 1P.4
4. The amount of flying subject to the AF JV flown by each partner will be determined from
a summer season baseline period commencing in the summer season immediately
preceding the full implementation date. All growth ASMs flown above the baseline
figure by the partners will be aggregated and shared between the partners on a 50/50
basis, subject to Section 1 P. 5.
5. Compliance will be measured for each summer season period, commencing at the end of
the first summer season following full implementation. If the Company’s share of the AF
JV growth ASMs above the baseline is at least 47% for the applicable summer season
period, the Company will be deemed in compliance with the growth ASM measurement
If the Company is not in compliance with the growth ASM measurement for any summer
season measurement period, the Company may cure any such breach by (within 90 days
after the date of written notification from the MEC Chairman to the Company of such
breach) increasing the number of Delta growth ASMs or decreasing the number of AF
growth ASMs at the beginning of the next summer season
to:
MOU 14
The baseline EASK allocations in the AF/KL/AZ JV agreement are 50% for DL and 50%
for AF/KL/AZ of the total EASK capacity. Section 1 P. 4. is updated to reflect such
adjustment. Effective with the three year measurement period ending on March 31, 2011
(including applicable AZ flying during the 12 month measurement period of April 1,
2010 to March 31, 2011 only), the Company shall maintain no less than 48.50% of the
EASK capacity share in this measurement period (Company’s baseline EASK allocation
minus 1.50%). A new three year rolling measurement period will begin April 1, 2011
and the actual capacity share percentages for all previous years will be disregarded for
capacity share measurement purposes. In the case of the rolling three year measurement
periods ending March 31, 2014, and thereafter, the Company shall be required to
maintain no less than 48.50% (Company’s baseline EASK allocation minus 1.50%) of the
total EASK capacity subject to the provisions of Section 1 P. 6.
In the first 12 month measurement period following March 31, 2010 (i.e., from each
April 1 to March 31 of the following calendar year), during which the Company’s EASK
capacity share is greater than or equal to 49.75%, a new three year rolling measurement
period will begin and the capacity share percentages for all previous years will be
disregarded for capacity share measurement purposes.
We went from a 12 month window to a rolling three year window. There was also a 90 day compliance period after the 12 month look back. Now, when they hit compliance within the band, a new three year period starts. There is no look back. As I read this, they need to only be in compliance for one reporting period every three years.
This was done by MOU number 14 in June of 2010.
Well, I guess we now know our MEC's stance on scope.
The change is so diluted as to have no teeth. What's the deal, can our MEC not even be bothered to enforce anything?
11-04-2011 | 12:20 PM
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,263
Likes: 105
From: DAL 330
Lots of great things in your post. You however left out the most important part. How do you play hardball. Let me hear your suggestions as to what DALPA should do to play hardball. I don't mean the opener. DALPA can open for anything they want. What I mean is how do you produce a outcome within the bounds of the RLA and NMB. That is the key to everything yet never seems to be discussed here.
Sailing,
PM sent. The bottom line is if we are not willing to risk much - we will not gain much.
Scoop
11-04-2011 | 12:38 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,166
Likes: 0
From: 737 Capt
Lots of great things in your post. You however left out the most important part. How do you play hardball. Let me hear your suggestions as to what DALPA should do to play hardball. I don't mean the opener. DALPA can open for anything they want. What I mean is how do you produce a outcome within the bounds of the RLA and NMB. That is the key to everything yet never seems to be discussed here.
11-04-2011 | 12:47 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Yes we do, but not in the way you think.
Our Joint Venture agreement is industry leading. We WANT productivity balance and sharing as these virtual mergers (end runs around foreign ownership rules) proliferate around the globe. In effect, the Joint Venture Language does what I have advocated for years in the form of "inclusive scope." All new flying is automatically included and a portion of it has to be ours. We need these agreements with China, Australia, Central and South America in addition to our European venture.
As I understand the language (and I am no expert) the Company and partners have to maintain a rolling three year average. If the numbers get skewed on one end, they would have to be equally skewed on the other to comply. It is not as some have stated a "snapshot" once every three years to reset.
If the Company were to violate, it would be a huge grievance and a similarly huge settlement. The Reps have been told (and they've been getting pinged on this) that the Company intends to comply, Here's a post from the top Expert, which I have been authorized to share (AZ is Alitalia)
Yes, it does appear from the Contract language and commentary that the Company does have a three year window, but if the AVERAGE is out of compliance it would trigger a grievance large enough to (insert mother of all grievance metaphor here).
Our Joint Venture agreement is industry leading. We WANT productivity balance and sharing as these virtual mergers (end runs around foreign ownership rules) proliferate around the globe. In effect, the Joint Venture Language does what I have advocated for years in the form of "inclusive scope." All new flying is automatically included and a portion of it has to be ours. We need these agreements with China, Australia, Central and South America in addition to our European venture.
As I understand the language (and I am no expert) the Company and partners have to maintain a rolling three year average. If the numbers get skewed on one end, they would have to be equally skewed on the other to comply. It is not as some have stated a "snapshot" once every three years to reset.
If the Company were to violate, it would be a huge grievance and a similarly huge settlement. The Reps have been told (and they've been getting pinged on this) that the Company intends to comply, Here's a post from the top Expert, which I have been authorized to share (AZ is Alitalia)
Delta's EASK right now, on a 12 month rolling basis ending Oct 2011 is 47.6%. As discussed with the MEC previously, this is about the same EASK as when AZ was added. So, with nobody adding/deleting traffic, just the addition of AZ to the mix, our EASK should be and is around 47.2% ... we will grow over time to 50%, which is about 7 more roundtrip transatlantic 76ER trips in EASK terms ... . This will be accomplished in the next two years as the DL aircraft come out of the lie flat mod lines. So, the new JV with AZ added is a gain for the Delta pilots.
Now, about their growth. The growth (of Air France) is total system growth, inside and outside the JV. AF has recently started their Province basing and have added significant domestic capacity to combat the inroads that Ryanair and Easyjet are inflicting on their business. And AF/KLM is still losing a lot of money. On the transatlantic, the EASKs are going to remain about the same for each side, as AF/KL/AZ are pulling out capacity along with Delta. Remember, that because they fly much larger equipment across the Atlantic, they pull less flights out, but the EASKs per aircraft are more. When we return to growth, we will have to add more aircraft, because we fly smaller EASK aircraft in the transatlantic, to keep the EASKs at even.
We are in a new 3 year window which won't be measured until March 2014, as I mentioned above. When we get to 49.75% on a rolling 12 month basis, that will trigger yet another start of a measuring period. If it occurs prior to March 2014, it obviates this current measurement period. If it doesn't, then we will have the 2014 measurement period (on a 3 year basis).
I believe we will see a return to the 50% level sometime in 2013, but that's just an opinion. Nonetheless, we have a measurement if we don't make it to 49.75 on a 12 month lookback, and if we do, it starts a new period, but at that point we are basically at 50%.
I would also remind you that while today we are at 47.6% on an EASK basis, that translates to 60.5% on a pilot block hour basis, which is jobs.
Now, about their growth. The growth (of Air France) is total system growth, inside and outside the JV. AF has recently started their Province basing and have added significant domestic capacity to combat the inroads that Ryanair and Easyjet are inflicting on their business. And AF/KLM is still losing a lot of money. On the transatlantic, the EASKs are going to remain about the same for each side, as AF/KL/AZ are pulling out capacity along with Delta. Remember, that because they fly much larger equipment across the Atlantic, they pull less flights out, but the EASKs per aircraft are more. When we return to growth, we will have to add more aircraft, because we fly smaller EASK aircraft in the transatlantic, to keep the EASKs at even.
We are in a new 3 year window which won't be measured until March 2014, as I mentioned above. When we get to 49.75% on a rolling 12 month basis, that will trigger yet another start of a measuring period. If it occurs prior to March 2014, it obviates this current measurement period. If it doesn't, then we will have the 2014 measurement period (on a 3 year basis).
I believe we will see a return to the 50% level sometime in 2013, but that's just an opinion. Nonetheless, we have a measurement if we don't make it to 49.75 on a 12 month lookback, and if we do, it starts a new period, but at that point we are basically at 50%.
I would also remind you that while today we are at 47.6% on an EASK basis, that translates to 60.5% on a pilot block hour basis, which is jobs.
11-04-2011 | 12:49 PM
Banned
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,007
Likes: 0
From: Space Shuttle PIC
Lots of great things in your post. You however left out the most important part. How do you play hardball. Let me hear your suggestions as to what DALPA should do to play hardball. I don't mean the opener. DALPA can open for anything they want. What I mean is how do you produce a outcome within the bounds of the RLA and NMB. That is the key to everything yet never seems to be discussed here.
11-04-2011 | 12:55 PM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Very simple. You tell the company that the "special symbiotic" relationship ALPA has had in the past 6 years with management could be broken and the DPA could take over. Management loves DALPA, after each birthday party attended they seem to get some sort of secret deal done. Take away that beneficial friendship for the company, and it could cost them down the line with the more "hard nosed" DPA group that could come in. Pay now, get more later from DALPA, like it's been for the past few years.
Not that I love DALPA, but beating your chest with an empty threat doesn't pump me up and I am damned sure it doesn't scare management.
11-04-2011 | 12:56 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,629
Likes: 15
From: blueJet
For example, maybe Delta offered to not give SkyWest any A320s in exchange for ALPA's blessing.
11-04-2011 | 12:56 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
DL SEA-CDG, Beginning 3/2012 — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net
Well, there's a step in the right direction!
Well, there's a step in the right direction!
11-04-2011 | 12:57 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
80, what equipment is that? Super Fi Fi on a Polar Route?
-----
Boomer,
Did you read above? With the inclusion of Alitalia to the JV Delta has to grow to come back up to 50%. What part of growth is a concession?
-----
Boomer,
Did you read above? With the inclusion of Alitalia to the JV Delta has to grow to come back up to 50%. What part of growth is a concession?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
