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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1142916)
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Originally Posted by DeadHead
(Post 1143006)
No offense, but you seem to speak as though you definitively know how section 6 negotiations will unfold over the next year.
Seeing as the survey results and "official" position of DALPA on certain issues is a mystery to the majority of the pilot group, I find it extremely arrogant for anyone, be it a supporter for DPA or DALPA, to establish the exact outcome over the next few years. I may have misread your tone here, so if I did I apologize. Either way definitive assumptious predictions of section 6 will do nothing for anyone. Some of us "Junior FOs", like Freightguy and myself, need to start seriously start thinking about our plan "B" since the reliability of the airlines are about as stable as a plate glass window. Just saying... RA feels we are paid about right at the moment. He is on record stating that. He has over and over again stressed that Delta will only pay industry average wages not industry leading. If he gives us a industry leading contract he is going to have to follow up by doing the same for all employees or face having Delta once again become a very poor performing airline. The cost would be very high. His last talk at the LCA meeting he stressed improvements over time and discussed the AMR situation and what the union passed up at length. The implied message was obvious to every in attendance. If we want a 4, 4, 4, 4 contract with no change in other areas we can have it done close to the amendable date. I will not accept that type of contract and I doubt the majority of the pilot group will accept it. This forum makes light of pilot costs as a issue in the success of the airline. I can assure you that management has a vastly different view. This is a brutal industry selling a commodity. When you sell a commodity you had better be priced within pennies of the competition or your not going to last. The gains this pilot group wants and deserves are not going to come easy or quick. Its going to be a long hard struggle over many years. To believe anything else is a fantasy. A year ago I would have given us a much better chance of a quick contract. I thought AMR would get a deal done as well as UAL/CAL. It now appears they are both going no where fast or in the case of AMR no where good. A lot has changed. Prepare yourself for a long fight. Get set financially. If Delta does not meet your needs and you have better options now I would jump all over that. I will hopefully only be around another 3 years. I am about done with my career and I don't want another flying job. I don't understand why the younger pilots on this forum are sticking around if they even believe half of what they post and hate the job and Delta as much as they say. |
Originally Posted by freightguy
(Post 1141997)
Same here! If contract 2012 does not restore our pay, I'm out the door as well. In fact, I have some gigs short-listed already... each of them pays more than twice what I'm making now at Delta. There all a lot of opportunities out there. In fact, if the management wants to try furlough to scare us, I say BRING IT ON! In fact, I would be delighted. But I won't give a single concession on scope nor would settle for anything less than restoration of my 40% paycut.
Originally Posted by freightguy
(Post 1142976)
Thanks for your concern. I'm sure I will do alright! :)
Like I said before tsquare; you are already a widebody captain. You won't gain much by leaving Delta. Even with the current payrates, schedules and qol, you will do better staying here. But for junior folks like me who are First Officers, it is going to take 15 to 20 yrs to make it to an 7ER left seat (without further shrinkage) and 10+ years to a narrowbody left seat on reserve. So career progression wise alone, I would gain by leaving Delta today. I can walk directly into a left seat of several narrowbody jobs and even some widebody gigs with my experience. I don't even have to head to the Middle East to achieve this. Middle East is not my cup of tea. There are currently some great opportunities in the Far East. In fact, several pre-merger NWA pilots lived in the Far East while working for NWA. With the significant lower cost of living, they were able to live a life of luxury down in some sunny island. I personally visited some of them... don't even get me started on those stories! :eek: As I stated before, as a widebody reserve FO, I have been making reserve guarantee for the last few years (even with greenslips put on for the entire month). I make $7700 before taxes and around $5500 after all deduction and taxes. It is a far cry from luxury much less a decent income. Currently I'm working a side-business to supplement my Delta income. It is pretty sad that I have to do it, while flying for 'One Great Airline'! So with the career stagnation, low pay and high cost of living; leaving Delta would be a good move on my part. Without a great 2012 contract, the decision becomes much much easier. I and many other will not stay here and 'hope' for a better tomorrow. I am ambitious. I will play elsewhere. Again, if they want to furlough as part of the negotiating scare tactics, bring it on! I just hope they hurry and and do it! :) Delta is currently a second tier airline. Currently well behind Fedex, UPS and Southwest in the US alone. We must be aggressive to gain an industry leading contract in 2012. I would much rather be furloughed and return to a first tier airline with a great contract, than hang on and accept mediocrity. I am not mouthing off as some senior guy who is safe from a furlough. I will be included in the first wave, if they furlough! |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1142990)
With the opportunities you have at the moment I would make my move to a new career now. You reference 2012 many times in your post. It shows a lack of understanding about how the process works. There is not a chance we will see a contract in 2012 with anything close to what I will except much less the 40 percent you mention. The only way to get that type of contract will be after a release from the NMB. Contrary to what Carl thinks this is going to be a political contract. The NMB already recognizes it as a watershed contract in the industry. They have involved themselves in the process already which is highly unusual.
The normal time frame to get through the NMB is 4 years at the moment. Our contract will take longer. The earliest we can expect a release if ever is probably around 2017. The industry will have changed so much by then the opportunities you mention may be gone. Even if we reach a negotiated settlement with the company the norm is about 18 months beyond the amendable date so you are still looking at 2014 mid year. The one thing that could change all these timelines is another merger. Then all bets are off depending on what the company needs from us. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1142990)
With the opportunities you have at the moment I would make my move to a new career now. You reference 2012 many times in your post. It shows a lack of understanding about how the process works. There is not a chance we will see a contract in 2012 with anything close to what I will except much less the 40 percent you mention. The only way to get that type of contract will be after a release from the NMB. Contrary to what Carl thinks this is going to be a political contract. The NMB already recognizes it as a watershed contract in the industry. They have involved themselves in the process already which is highly unusual.
The normal time frame to get through the NMB is 4 years at the moment. Our contract will take longer. The earliest we can expect a release if ever is probably around 2017. The industry will have changed so much by then the opportunities you mention may be gone. Even if we reach a negotiated settlement with the company the norm is about 18 months beyond the amendable date so you are still looking at 2014 mid year. The one thing that could change all these timelines is another merger. Then all bets are off depending on what the company needs from us. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1142973)
You got the 50 dollar fee unilaterally with no prior input from the pilots. They could also limit S2's or S3's etc currently with no prior input. If they keep pulling capacity and as a result there are too many non-revs clogging the system, you could currently see these benefits unilaterally changed.
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Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1143014)
Why oh why is this thug so popular? I don't get it....
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Originally Posted by tsquare
(Post 1143021)
This is very telling. From what I can gather from these two posts, you are a classic study in the entitlement mentality, and I am sure that you have no qualms about throwing rocks at more senior pilots because "they got theirs". To wit: You said in your first post that if contract 2012 does not restore OUR pay, then you are out the door. In post number two you reiterate that you would be subject to furlough. Since the contract that reduced OUR pay was over 10 years ago, and if you truly are as close to furlough as you intimate, then you never enjoyed the fruits of that contract in C2K, so now you feel entitled to those same fruits. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see you get paid what a newhire (since essentially that is what you are) was paid in the right seat of the 767, but you are issuing an ultimatum to get something you never had... THat is why I wish you the best of luck.
Entitlement issues? Just because I want a decent contract? So what do you want me to do to 'redeem' myself of the entitlement attitude? Accept a 'B' scale? I worked very hard to make it to Delta. My path to the airline cockpit included starvation, rooflessness and a bunch of other sacrifices. I still work very hard. I have made a very decent living outside of my Delta paycheck and employed a number of people... not because I'm sitting on my butt with entitlement issues but beacuse I work hard and I am ambitious. And no... I am not a new-hire. But not too far from the bottom. When I said I will be very close to the bottom on furlough... it is relative. It depends on how many they put on the street (if they do it). But I will take a voluntary furlough if that happens and will be out with the first wave. At the end of the day tsquare... I am your best friend. Voting with your feet is the best way to restore a decent contract for the remaining folks. By me and some others leaving Delta, you will indirectly benefit. :D |
Originally Posted by Jesse
(Post 1143034)
What are you willing to give up for that?:D
We are quickly approaching a point where the middle class will not have enough expendable income and their credit will dry up. At that point many businesses will fail because the machine that buys their products is no longer present. You must feed the had that feeds the business machine in this country, and that point is often forgotten. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1143011)
The way I've decided to play this for now is to seek as long a leave of absence as the Company will allow and work elsewhere. As long as reserves are not being utilized getting paid by two, or three, jobs results in earnings about where a guy should be for this level of age, education and overall level of decrepitude ... When displaced, simply request the LOA for the day training starts... as long as Delta doesn't need me, I'm going to try not to need Delta. When Delta does need pilots, it might be nice to dust off this seniority number and go flying.
My number one goal in life the next two years is to make sure that I rely exactly 0% on Delta for anything other than a supplemental source of income and travel benefits. |
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