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Originally Posted by georgetg
(Post 1143083)
You guys are just all so negative!
Let's celebrate the new jet delivered today! Is this "Winning New York?" ;-) http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg860/sca...=640&ysize=640 Cheers George This is how you win New York: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3368/...b03eec73c9.jpg |
Just incase you guys didn't know spirit just announced las-msp and Ord-msp. They had been going after aa and united now it looks like they are going to target delta. Can you match their 9 dollar intro fares?
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Hi everyone,
First post so please be kind. Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else? Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind? That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it. I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way. Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right. |
Originally Posted by iceman49
(Post 1143074)
RA has said a lot of things over the last several years, I don't think we should confuse his thoughts with out needs.
Exactly. They want want us under an agreement to further their reach and profitability, they will need to decide if they are willing to pay the price for their goals. If we get to vote on (and it passes) anything remotely to what Sailing suggests, it makes many pilots' decisions easy on where to go wrt to their career. Many have said the senior guys have run the number and know exactly what this or that will result in the results not effecting them, but another reality is true. The junior pilots are running their numbers as well. If DAL does not want to pay to keep talent and quality in the flight decks,there is a surprising number of pilots looking overseas. I suspect we will see some jump to FDX and UPS, but many will just go work overseas for a period of 10-15 years and then return to the states to finish their careers out on a commuting contract or start a business. It does make a lot of sense. As T say, it is not ideal, but for many pilots looking at less than 25 years in the game, and at least 10 years to the half way mark in this seniority list. You have to look at the risk-reward of some other opportunity to meet life/retirement goals if your current employer is not willing to rationally share in the gains. Its business and nothing personal from what my of the pilots I have talked to who are looking. They want DAL to get it right, but their families come first. The interesting note in all of this is that pilots are finding portability of their skill set, and to a larger degree than they have before. US airlines need to take note of this, and realize that the rest of the world is seeing the pilot shortage we are waiting for here. There will not be expats to fill the seats here. Pay must go up to get those interest in this career to jump in. It is pure economics. We need to replace over half of this list in the next 15 years. If DAL wants to maintain their size and quality of their pilot force, the total package needs to come up. What I am seeing across the board is, no one is willing to compromise their contractual goals to get a deal done quickly. If our employer is unwilling to pay us what the rest of the World is paying pilots, many have started to formulate and exit strategy. The days of the lion's share of pilots using this job to pay the bills until the military pension shows up are disappearing. DAL and the rest of the US industry needs to realize that and adjust accordingly. |
Originally Posted by PinnacleFO
(Post 1143086)
Just incase you guys didn't know spirit just announced las-msp and Ord-msp. They had been going after aa and united now it looks like they are going to target delta. Can you match their 9 dollar intro fares?
They are really trying to get acquired. |
Originally Posted by iceman49
(Post 1143074)
RA has said a lot of things over the last several years, I don't think we should confuse his thoughts with out needs.
Yeah, right. Never forget, He is Managenet, YOU are the hired help. And when he's talking to the help, he's already negotiating. He knows his audience, and he knows what to say to them (us). He is already in contract negotiaions, obviously. |
Originally Posted by dtwairbus320
(Post 1143089)
Hi everyone,
First post so please be kind. Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else? Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind? That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it. I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way. Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right. Welcome to the longest running thread here on APC. Post here post often:D I was talking to a few of my FA"s a month or so ago, and they were commenting that they will be back to their Pre CH11 wages with the pay bump this year. (If they are not they are very very close) I agree, our pay is still about 42% down on a dollar per dollar basis wrt to hourly wage, That does not include inflation. If that were factored in we are over 70% down. There are items we will never be able to get back: Efficiencies in PBS, and the pensions come to mind. We can get better work rules, vacation, sick time, retirement contributions, a robust profit sharing plan, etc. It takes a unified group to force the issue. What I do see is a group that is starting to come together quite nicely just prior to the opener. We all want the same thing, and are starting to face the deck chairs towards the front of the room; no longer yelling at each other, but stating what we want the company to agree too. That is significant, and needs to continue. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 1143090)
Exactly.
They want want us under an agreement to further their reach and profitability, they will need to decide if they are willing to pay the price for their goals. If we get to vote on (and it passes) anything remotely to what Sailing suggests, it makes many pilots' decisions easy on where to go wrt to their career. Many have said the senior guys have run the number and know exactly what this or that will result in the results not effecting them, but another reality is true. The junior pilots are running their numbers as well. If DAL does not want to pay to keep talent and quality in the flight decks,there is a surprising number of pilots looking overseas. I suspect we will see some jump to FDX and UPS, but many will just go work overseas for a period of 10-15 years and then return to the states to finish their careers out on a commuting contract or start a business. It does make a lot of sense. As T say, it is not ideal, but for many pilots looking at less than 25 years in the game, and at least 10 years to the half way mark in this seniority list. You have to look at the risk-reward of some other opportunity to meet life/retirement goals if your current employer is not willing to rationally share in the gains. Its business and nothing personal from what my of the pilots I have talked to who are looking. They want DAL to get it right, but their families come first. The interesting note in all of this is that pilots are finding portability of their skill set, and to a larger degree than they have before. US airlines need to take note of this, and realize that the rest of the world is seeing the pilot shortage we are waiting for here. There will not be expats to fill the seats here. Pay must go up to get those interest in this career to jump in. It is pure economics. We need to replace over half of this list in the next 15 years. If DAL wants to maintain their size and quality of their pilot force, the total package needs to come up. What I am seeing across the board is, no one is willing to compromise their contractual goals to get a deal done quickly. If our employer is unwilling to pay us what the rest of the World is paying pilots, many have started to formulate and exit strategy. The days of the lion's share of pilots using this job to pay the bills until the military pension shows up are disappearing. DAL and the rest of the US industry needs to realize that and adjust accordingly. ACL, I agree, and the only good thing to come out of our Bankruptcy was, with the loss of our DB plan, we are no longer handcuffed to Delta for the rest or our careers. If I get a better offer somewhere else, I'm gone. |
Originally Posted by dtwairbus320
(Post 1143089)
Hi everyone,
First post so please be kind. Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else? Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind? That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it. I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way. Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right. I didnt know the other groups were almost back to pre chapter 11 pay? That's something we can work with. |
And let me just add that any increase to our current pay should be referred to as a RESTORATION and not a raise. We all need to use the correct vernacular to make our point clear.
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