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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1155294)
Who knows ... (not I) But, if given the choice, I'd rather get the new CRj 905 than the 717. It has better performance and better profit margins. Flying an airplane that makes money is a good thing for job security.
Management can buy all the RJ's it wants. We do not have to change scope for that to happen. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1155297)
Its not even a rumor. The company has not approached the union with any offers on scope or 717's or anything in the recent threads. The only real fact is that SWA has stated the 717 are not in their long range fleet plan and they will not renew the leases. Those expire over a period of time I think from 2017 to 2024. Phantom 717's in the desert ect.. were leased to a European startup airline and not Delta. They are gone. As I have mentioned before Delta starts the 100 seat rumor every time a contract is being discussed. I still don't think they want a two class 100 seat aircraft.
Ed Bastian suggested something, who knows what? For their part, the Reps are talking about a "production balance" with DCI and darned if I can figure out what that means (DCI did not bring any flying to the table, so what do we balance, exactly?) As suspected, the Company, if they want 717's can get them without any scope changes. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1155297)
I still don't think they want a two class 100 seat aircraft.
I'm sorry, but we require more than your guess. How about some bulletproof scope/JV language (and recapture) this time. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1155297)
Its not even a rumor. The company has not approached the union with any offers on scope or 717's or anything in the recent threads. The only real fact is that SWA has stated the 717 are not in their long range fleet plan and they will not renew the leases. Those expire over a period of time I think from 2017 to 2024. Phantom 717's in the desert ect.. were leased to a European startup airline and not Delta. They are gone. As I have mentioned before Delta starts the 100 seat rumor every time a contract is being discussed. I still don't think they want a two class 100 seat aircraft.
But really, why wouldnt they? Didn't they turn 70 seaters into two class airplanes? Not to mention the 76 seaters? If the E175 can be two class why not the E190? And fwiw, I dont see how we'd ever exchange scope concessions for an airplane that can only come here. I think that's bizzare, it'd be me saying I was $300 more per hour to live up to my side of the contract. But whether the company would ask for a increase to 355, that's plausible. I could see them asking for that weekly. |
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1155302)
Are you still totally sold on that data you posted? That stuff does not pass the taste test of validity...
Besides, a 717 just does not paint up like a Killer Whale as well as a 737 does. If it were up to me, we'd shut down the 737 line tomorrow, revoke the DC9's type certificate, as well as the Certificates of any airplanes that originated in French Canada or Brazil and require RR powered 757-200's perform all narrow body flying with large government subsidies on routes with < 70% load factors. ( Screw Bank of America, bail out 757 flying ). But that's just me. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1155297)
Its not even a rumor. The company has not approached the union with any offers on scope or 717's or anything in the recent threads. The only real fact is that SWA has stated the 717 are not in their long range fleet plan and they will not renew the leases. Those expire over a period of time I think from 2017 to 2024. Phantom 717's in the desert ect.. were leased to a European startup airline and not Delta. They are gone. As I have mentioned before Delta starts the 100 seat rumor every time a contract is being discussed. I still don't think they want a two class 100 seat aircraft.
We may see major scope rewrites and there are a ton of loopholes that Ned fixing. The list is quite long. Jv's and code share pose a huge threat to this group. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1155297)
Its not even a rumor. The company has not approached the union with any offers on scope or 717's or anything in the recent threads. The only real fact is that SWA has stated the 717 are not in their long range fleet plan and they will not renew the leases. Those expire over a period of time I think from 2017 to 2024. Phantom 717's in the desert ect.. were leased to a European startup airline and not Delta. They are gone. As I have mentioned before Delta starts the 100 seat rumor every time a contract is being discussed. I still don't think they want a two class 100 seat aircraft.
Some of them would rather be DAL pilots than SWA. Nu |
Is Tsquare okay?
Is Tebow going to the Titans? |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1155309)
The CRj out sold the 717 by a ratio of 10 to 1, although it was not as large, durable, or as preferred by customers. The 737NG outsold the 717 by a ratio of 40 to 1. Why? Could the answer be the better economics of newer designs?
Besides, a 717 just does not paint up like a Killer Whale as well as a 737 does. But that's just me. Bar, Its not that simple. In the mid to late 90's the US Navy put out a bid to replace their C-9's and DC-9s. The two serious competitors were the MD-95 (basically a C-717) and the 737-700 (C-40). The numbers were very close and the MD-95 was looking real good and was the early favorite, then lo and behold at the last minute Boeing got the deal. The original Boeing's could not stay in the CG envelope that the Navy requested. The Boeing answer that the Navy agreed to - I kid you not, 1500lbs of permanent ballast in the ass of the first C-40's. Douglas planes had no such issue, but they also did not have the K street clout of Boeing . Douglas had been dying a long slow death and Boeing was thriving. Politics played heavily in the decision (imagine that). I am not saying the 717 is better than the 737, but I often see guys slam the Douglas aircraft and compare the super 80's and the 88's to the 737NG aircraft. Well guess what the NG wins hands down. On the other hand where are the Mad Dog contemporaries? Who is still flying the 737 200's, 300's and 500's and in what numbers? Does anyone plan to keep them around as long as we will keep the 88's and 90's? If the 737 was/is so much better than the Douglas products why are there plenty of classic Douglas jets still flying but not as many classic Boeing's? I have flown both. I like both. Both have good and weak points. As far as relaxing the 70/76 seat limit for "growth aircraft" I have two comments: 1 - If we as a Pilot group are stupid enough to fall for that - we are doomed, and the bottom half of the seniority list better get used to yanking gear. 2. It would be a DPA recruiters dream come true. Hell I would personally cut a check for the DPA immediately and then probably volunteer as a recruiter. Scoop |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 1155340)
Bar,
Its not that simple. In the mid to late 90's the US Navy put out a bid to replace their C-9's and DC-9s. The two serious competitors were the MD-95 (basically a C-717) and the 737-700 (C-40). The numbers were very close and the MD-95 was looking real good and was the early favorite, then lo and behold at the last minute Boeing got the deal. The original Boeing's could not stay in the CG envelope that the Navy requested. The Boeing answer that the Navy agreed to - I kid you not, 1500lbs of permanent ballast in the ass of the first C-40's. Douglas planes had no such issue, but they also did not have the K street clout of Boeing . Douglas had been dying a long slow death and Boeing was thriving. Politics played heavily in the decision (imagine that). I am not saying the 717 is better than the 737, but I often see guys slam the Douglas aircraft and compare the super 80's and the 88's to the 737NG aircraft. Well guess what the NG wins hands down. On the other hand where are the Mad Dog contemporaries? Who is still flying the 737 200's, 300's and 500's and in what numbers? Does anyone plan to keep them around as long as we will keep the 88's and 90's? If the 737 was/is so much better than the Douglas products why are there plenty of classic Douglas jets still flying but not as many classic Boeing's? I have flown both. I like both. Both have good and weak points. As far as relaxing the 70/76 seat limit for "growth aircraft" I have two comments: 1 - If we as a Pilot group are stupid enough to fall for that - we are doomed, and the bottom half of the seniority list better get used to yanking gear. 2. It would be a DPA recruiters dream come true. Hell I would personally cut a check for the DPA immediately and then probably volunteer as a recruiter. Scoop :D |
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