Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-02-2012 | 05:46 AM
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From: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
The math is using the 2009 Form 41 data and adding SWA pay raises to their numbers, and the same for us. In order to take DC into account, I assumed both pilots contributed 2% into their DC. Both pilots in that case would see 2% less in their paycheck and the Delta pilot would receive 12% more in his DC. The SWA pilot can receive more DC if he subtracts more current pay, but I didn't choose to run the numbers that way. Doing that math, it looks like they are about 23.5% ahead on pay, and 12% behind on DC. Combine the two and you are close to the Roger number of 11%.
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the above calculus, but can we add a few things to this mix?
The average Southwest pilot may fly more hours per month, but the stage lengths are vastly different and their average load factor is also lower. The DL pilot on average flies more seats per departure, on aircraft that produce more revenue (First/Business, Cargo, Charter Ops), and does all of this while operating in a global theater.
According to the SWAPA flyer, the average Southwest pilot does all of this while working significantly fewer days per month/year than the DL pilot does.
I just want to make sure that if we are going to go SWA/DL comparisons, we consider everything that is in that complex mix.
As we expand our 88-90 (dc-9) fleet and 737 fleet, the production rate of the DL pilot should increase. The new pilots we hire over the next 15 years will come online at the lowest pay rate with 2 weeks of vacation, and we may well have pay banding by then. So going forward, the advantage swings our way.
04-02-2012 | 06:23 AM
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That's all cool. what if getting all that stuff also means 500 guys get furloughed? You cool with that too? Just axing... or are we in such a vacuum that we can get it all for no cost? Nevermind... I am sure the Krispy Kremes could do it... they can do everything that DALPA is too stupid to do... rah rah rah
04-02-2012 | 06:30 AM
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04-02-2012 | 06:36 AM
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From: Light Chop
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the above calculus, but can we add a few things to this mix?
The average Southwest pilot may fly more hours per month, but the stage lengths are vastly different and their average load factor is also lower. The DL pilot on average flies more seats per departure, on aircraft that produce more revenue (First/Business, Cargo, Charter Ops), and does all of this while operating in a global theater.
According to the SWAPA flyer, the average Southwest pilot does all of this while working significantly fewer days per month/year than the DL pilot does.
I just want to make sure that if we are going to go SWA/DL comparisons, we consider everything that is in that complex mix.
As we expand our 88-90 (dc-9) fleet and 737 fleet, the production rate of the DL pilot should increase. The new pilots we hire over the next 15 years will come online at the lowest pay rate with 2 weeks of vacation, and we may well have pay banding by then. So going forward, the advantage swings our way.
The average Southwest pilot may fly more hours per month, but the stage lengths are vastly different and their average load factor is also lower. The DL pilot on average flies more seats per departure, on aircraft that produce more revenue (First/Business, Cargo, Charter Ops), and does all of this while operating in a global theater.
According to the SWAPA flyer, the average Southwest pilot does all of this while working significantly fewer days per month/year than the DL pilot does.
I just want to make sure that if we are going to go SWA/DL comparisons, we consider everything that is in that complex mix.
As we expand our 88-90 (dc-9) fleet and 737 fleet, the production rate of the DL pilot should increase. The new pilots we hire over the next 15 years will come online at the lowest pay rate with 2 weeks of vacation, and we may well have pay banding by then. So going forward, the advantage swings our way.
he explained how that worked and it did not require funny business like we would need with green slips and the like. Just straight flying, but they get a lot of credit over there. How was it explained, that they're paid by the trip which equals a DAL-HOU run rounded up. I want to say it was something like paying us ATL-SAV trips for every leg, which lets say is 1 hour block. Well if you fly to EWR you get 3 trips, so you get 3 hours of pay for doing say a 2.25 flight. Well, that's 3 hours of credit you get paid so you're up 35 minutes and 1 hour on the leg. Do that over the course of a trip and you're rolling down the street,smoking endo and sipping on gin n' juice with your mind on your money and your money on your mind.
Something like that. I can't remember so don't take my word for it. I'll have to use the search function some time and see if I posted his comments.
FTB
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04-02-2012 | 06:39 AM
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Aw man, I wish I had the PM's from a while ago but I was given some pay information for a SWA A. Basically they flew about the same hours as we would normally, 80 hours-ish, but his check was $25,000 and he was less than 12 years btw.
he explained how that worked and it did not require funny business like we would need with green slips and the like. Just straight flying, but they get a lot of credit over there.
I'll have to use the search function some time and see if I posted his comments.
FTB
Retired from APCF
he explained how that worked and it did not require funny business like we would need with green slips and the like. Just straight flying, but they get a lot of credit over there.
I'll have to use the search function some time and see if I posted his comments.
FTB
Retired from APCF
04-02-2012 | 06:44 AM
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From: Light Chop
That's all cool. what if getting all that stuff also means 500 guys get furloughed? You cool with that too? Just axing... or are we in such a vacuum that we can get it all for no cost? Nevermind... I am sure the Krispy Kremes could do it... they can do everything that DALPA is too stupid to do... rah rah rah
but I do have to say I too would be concerned with flying completely like SWA. A jump from 70 to 78 hour min reserve coverage to me means we'd be overstaffed. Maybe I'm assuming. I think a red flag was thrown by the DALPA guys here a while back about doing just that. On the other hand, I don't agree with the guys "I don't want to get paid like SWA, I don't want to come to work and work all day. I want to relax, drink a beer, go out on the town, etc..."
I'd rather be home and having a night out on the town with my wife than with you, no offense, but I forgot your name already...
Still, if SWA came to 70 hours they'd still make more than us and get more credit pay than us.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 04-02-2012 at 06:57 AM.
04-02-2012 | 06:45 AM
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From: 737 ATL
04-02-2012 | 06:51 AM
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From: Light Chop
The math is using the 2009 Form 41 data and adding SWA pay raises to their numbers, and the same for us. In order to take DC into account, I assumed both pilots contributed 2% into their DC. Both pilots in that case would see 2% less in their paycheck and the Delta pilot would receive 12% more in his DC. The SWA pilot can receive more DC if he subtracts more current pay, but I didn't choose to run the numbers that way. Doing that math, it looks like they are about 23.5% ahead on pay, and 12% behind on DC. Combine the two and you are close to the Roger number of 11%.
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
Compare a NB domestic only DAL crew that flies similar trips to SWA, like the 88, to SWA.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
04-02-2012 | 06:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
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The math is using the 2009 Form 41 data and adding SWA pay raises to their numbers, and the same for us. In order to take DC into account, I assumed both pilots contributed 2% into their DC. Both pilots in that case would see 2% less in their paycheck and the Delta pilot would receive 12% more in his DC. The SWA pilot can receive more DC if he subtracts more current pay, but I didn't choose to run the numbers that way. Doing that math, it looks like they are about 23.5% ahead on pay, and 12% behind on DC. Combine the two and you are close to the Roger number of 11%.
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
So, like some (88) here say, there is more to it than straight hourly wages. I agree with that. That could be why you have friends with great W2s. What's the explanation for that? Maybe SWA pilots work more than us. Using the same year Form 41 data, they do. The average SWA pilot flew 59.9 hours a month in 2009, and the average Delta pilot flew 42.5. If they are flying 40% more than us, they should be making more money.
So why are they flying more? Our contract is not as efficient, we spend time upgrading and doing WW ops, and transitioning to different aircraft, and sitting around for the plane we fly to show up so we can work. We could probably create a more efficient contract and be able to fly 59.9 hours a month, thereby increasing our W2s, but then 88 is not going to be an 88 captain. He's going to be a 767FO because we get rid of the bottom 2000 pilots.
So we are not in total disagreement. If both carrier's pilots flew the same number of hours as a Delta pilot averages, we'd need about an 11% pay raise to match SWA. If we flew as many of those hours as a SWA pilot, we'd make their W2.
Does that make sense?
04-02-2012 | 07:01 AM
Line Holder
Joined: May 2010
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7-Leg Day
WOW.
May Rotation 9617 for MSP DC-9B has a seven-leg day.
7:18 Blk, longest turn is 42 minutes.
11:05 LAYO the night before, 10:22 the night of.
It will be interesting to see if this becomes a way-of-life for the ATL DC-9.
May Rotation 9617 for MSP DC-9B has a seven-leg day.
7:18 Blk, longest turn is 42 minutes.
11:05 LAYO the night before, 10:22 the night of.
It will be interesting to see if this becomes a way-of-life for the ATL DC-9.
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