Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-12-2012, 07:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,922
As a permanent reserve, I never had a problem with working 8-10 days per month and getting paid 70 hours. What bothers me is when I work 16-18 days per month and still get paid 70 hours. If I was getting credit like a lineholder for the exact same schedule, I would have gotten over 90 hours one month that I did not break guarantee. It's frustrating getting a 4 hour 2-day on reserve while the guy you are flying with picked up a white slip worth 10:30. I would be perfectly happy with leaving reserve status quo as long as the credit is changed to match the lineholders. These changes from the negotiator's notepad are concessions. There is no way to spin it. I would also like to add that reserve in the winter months is not the same as reserve in the summer months. We need the most protection in the summer months because that is when the company pushes us to the max. This negotiator's notepad is relaxing restrictions in the summer in exchange for tightening restrictions in the winter. We are losing this negotiation badly.
05-12-2012, 07:59 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I had the same thing happen once. Listened to a guy in the lounge telling everyone how badly abused he was on reserve. Started pulling up his schedules as he talked. Over the previous 7 months he had averaged working 8 days a month and 3 shortcalls. Several of the work days overlapped the short call days. Another favorite is for Delta pilots to quote their earnings but not add back in the 401k, 401 catch up, health account contributions ect.. thus understating their yearly earnings by up to 26,000 a year.
If we allow the rules to be changed in the negative there will be a lot of pilots being abused with no ability to reduce the amount they fly. Also, as mentioned by others, GS, and premium pay for those wanting to increase income for minimally more work lose that ability.
Lets not continually cut off the options to tailor our QOL or income objectives. A pay raise alone or working more hours with crappy work rules is not the answer.
05-12-2012, 08:07 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Another favorite is for Delta pilots to quote their earnings but not add back in health account contributions ect
Medical cost have run rampant, not only at DAL, but in the country as a whole. The only way to start to real this in is to make the companies themselves cover these cost. They are the ones that can supply the amount of "pressure" needed on Congress and each other to get this problem fixed!
Back on point...the money in our medical plans should never be considered part of our compensation.
05-12-2012, 08:11 AM
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,869
NN Mindset
Guys,
We have a lot of very astute analysis of the NN going on here and as I read through the thread I am picking up on a few potential troubling misconceptions and or errors in logic:
Reserve Issues only affect a few Pilots, most who choose to be junior in category.
FALSE - Having the ability of reserves to fly more will result in less open time, less green-slip opportunity, slow movement to the left seat, slow advancement to bigger equipment.
Guys are saying, "I have been on reserve for years and never fly to ALV and never get more than 3or 4 short-calls – so the negative effects of this will be minimal."
FALSE – Do not make the huge mistake of extrapolating your last few years of experience (while DAL was almost always been over manned and shrinking) onto these new proposed work rules. Look forward to when the company tries to run us as lean as possible, we are possibly hiring, and we are always short pilots. There is a reason the company wants these efficiencies – they plan on using them.
Good times are around the corner as retirements kick in and we all advance.
IRRELEVANT – While I hope this is true it should not cloud our judgment. This will happen no matter what and has no place in this discussion. Also, lets not do anything to minimize and reduce this potential rapid advancement.
Finally – and most important. We as all Pilot groups, are at a severe negotiating disadvantage. Management is negotiating this contract with very specific future plans in mind. It is essentially putting in place the work-rules it intends to exploit in the future. We mostly, look at recent experience and say “I never hit ALV on reserve so this will not affect me. Wrong, wrong, wrong, as some on this board have said – Look at the work-rules as protection from a worst case scenario.
Management is negotiating these work-rules for a specific scenario that they intend to capitalize on. Might be a generic merger, or a merger with a specific airline, it doesn’t matter. All I can say is that when you make your decision on our next contract plan on operating within a continual worst case scenario for years to come because management has a plan for the airline. Whether worst case means no Green-slips or open time for line-holders or working your A$$ off on reserve, you can count on it. The plan obviously involves using these work-rules to get the most out of our Pilot group for years.
Scoop
We have a lot of very astute analysis of the NN going on here and as I read through the thread I am picking up on a few potential troubling misconceptions and or errors in logic:
Reserve Issues only affect a few Pilots, most who choose to be junior in category.
FALSE - Having the ability of reserves to fly more will result in less open time, less green-slip opportunity, slow movement to the left seat, slow advancement to bigger equipment.
Guys are saying, "I have been on reserve for years and never fly to ALV and never get more than 3or 4 short-calls – so the negative effects of this will be minimal."
FALSE – Do not make the huge mistake of extrapolating your last few years of experience (while DAL was almost always been over manned and shrinking) onto these new proposed work rules. Look forward to when the company tries to run us as lean as possible, we are possibly hiring, and we are always short pilots. There is a reason the company wants these efficiencies – they plan on using them.
Good times are around the corner as retirements kick in and we all advance.
IRRELEVANT – While I hope this is true it should not cloud our judgment. This will happen no matter what and has no place in this discussion. Also, lets not do anything to minimize and reduce this potential rapid advancement.
Finally – and most important. We as all Pilot groups, are at a severe negotiating disadvantage. Management is negotiating this contract with very specific future plans in mind. It is essentially putting in place the work-rules it intends to exploit in the future. We mostly, look at recent experience and say “I never hit ALV on reserve so this will not affect me. Wrong, wrong, wrong, as some on this board have said – Look at the work-rules as protection from a worst case scenario.
Management is negotiating these work-rules for a specific scenario that they intend to capitalize on. Might be a generic merger, or a merger with a specific airline, it doesn’t matter. All I can say is that when you make your decision on our next contract plan on operating within a continual worst case scenario for years to come because management has a plan for the airline. Whether worst case means no Green-slips or open time for line-holders or working your A$$ off on reserve, you can count on it. The plan obviously involves using these work-rules to get the most out of our Pilot group for years.
Scoop
05-12-2012, 08:24 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Originally Posted by Scoop
Guys,
We have a lot of very astute analysis of the NN going on here and as I read through the thread I am picking up on a few potential troubling misconceptions and or errors in logic:
Reserve Issues only affect a few Pilots, most who choose to be junior in category.
FALSE - Having the ability of reserves to fly more will result in less open time, less green-slip opportunity, slow movement to the left seat, slow advancement to bigger equipment.
Guys are saying, "I have been on reserve for years and never fly to ALV and never get more than 3or 4 short-calls so the negative effects of this will be minimal."
FALSE Do not make the huge mistake of extrapolating your last few years of experience (while DAL was almost always been over manned and shrinking) onto these new proposed work rules. Look forward to when the company tries to run us as lean as possible, we are possibly hiring, and we are always short pilots. There is a reason the company wants these efficiencies they plan on using them.
Good times are around the corner as retirements kick in and we all advance.
IRRELEVANT While I hope this is true it should not cloud our judgment. This will happen no matter what and has no place in this discussion. Also, lets not do anything to minimize and reduce this potential rapid advancement.
Finally and most important. We as all Pilot groups, are at a severe negotiating disadvantage. Management is negotiating this contract with very specific future plans in mind. It is essentially putting in place the work-rules it intends to exploit in the future. We mostly, look at recent experience and say I never hit ALV on reserve so this will not affect me. Wrong, wrong, wrong, as some on this board have said Look at the work-rules as protection from a worst case scenario.
Management is negotiating these work-rules for a specific scenario that they intend to capitalize on. Might be a generic merger, or a merger with a specific airline, it doesnt matter. All I can say is that when you make your decision on our next contract plan on operating within a continual worst case scenario for years to come because management has a plan for the airline. Whether worst case means no Green-slips or open time for line-holders or working your A$$ off on reserve, you can count on it. The plan obviously involves using these work-rules to get the most out of our Pilot group for years.
Scoop
We have a lot of very astute analysis of the NN going on here and as I read through the thread I am picking up on a few potential troubling misconceptions and or errors in logic:
Reserve Issues only affect a few Pilots, most who choose to be junior in category.
FALSE - Having the ability of reserves to fly more will result in less open time, less green-slip opportunity, slow movement to the left seat, slow advancement to bigger equipment.
Guys are saying, "I have been on reserve for years and never fly to ALV and never get more than 3or 4 short-calls so the negative effects of this will be minimal."
FALSE Do not make the huge mistake of extrapolating your last few years of experience (while DAL was almost always been over manned and shrinking) onto these new proposed work rules. Look forward to when the company tries to run us as lean as possible, we are possibly hiring, and we are always short pilots. There is a reason the company wants these efficiencies they plan on using them.
Good times are around the corner as retirements kick in and we all advance.
IRRELEVANT While I hope this is true it should not cloud our judgment. This will happen no matter what and has no place in this discussion. Also, lets not do anything to minimize and reduce this potential rapid advancement.
Finally and most important. We as all Pilot groups, are at a severe negotiating disadvantage. Management is negotiating this contract with very specific future plans in mind. It is essentially putting in place the work-rules it intends to exploit in the future. We mostly, look at recent experience and say I never hit ALV on reserve so this will not affect me. Wrong, wrong, wrong, as some on this board have said Look at the work-rules as protection from a worst case scenario.
Management is negotiating these work-rules for a specific scenario that they intend to capitalize on. Might be a generic merger, or a merger with a specific airline, it doesnt matter. All I can say is that when you make your decision on our next contract plan on operating within a continual worst case scenario for years to come because management has a plan for the airline. Whether worst case means no Green-slips or open time for line-holders or working your A$$ off on reserve, you can count on it. The plan obviously involves using these work-rules to get the most out of our Pilot group for years.
Scoop
05-12-2012, 08:29 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Driving to work & Looking Left @ the Surf!!
Posts: 727
Originally Posted by georgetg
As a five year Delta pilot I am still on reserve -- certainly not what I would have expected...
Baja.
05-12-2012, 08:39 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
I get those in my email as well... it hasn't showed up yet nor is on DLnet. Can you PM me the text?
ACL;
Can you PM me the text too. I want to see if the language is such that I can write off a new ipad as an unreimbursed employee expense.
For example if we can use an ipad for taxi charts, that's enough for me even without a "mandate."
05-12-2012, 08:45 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by johnso29
We don't even have a TA yet. You don't even know the details. You're making huge assumptions. Just wait for the actual TA. We all need to see the actual details of the actual TA before we make blanket statements.
If the TA takes the approach that it is our job to fix the companies looming training problem (due to retirements) by either longevity pay or extreme paybanding; promises of growth for lower pay increases (a B-scale by another name), growth of outsourcing, or any other "fix" the companies problem...I am a no.
05-12-2012, 09:04 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,725
Originally Posted by scambo1
ACL;
Can you PM me the text too. I want to see if the language is such that I can write off a new ipad as an unreimbursed employee expense.
For example if we can use an ipad for taxi charts, that's enough for me even without a "mandate."
Can you PM me the text too. I want to see if the language is such that I can write off a new ipad as an unreimbursed employee expense.
For example if we can use an ipad for taxi charts, that's enough for me even without a "mandate."
I've been writing off my home computer and laptop and cellphone for years, and ever since we got PBS, a computer is Required, just to bid, and since you spend so much time on the road, a Laptop/iPad is required to bid, and for anyone on reserve, obviously a cell ph.
And as you see here, I ONLY use those things for work related stuff...like using the APC forum to gather info on DL pubs emails!
05-12-2012, 09:07 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by Timbo
I've been writing off my home computer and laptop and cellphone for years, and ever since we got PBS, a computer is Required, just to bid, and since you spend so much time on the road, a Laptop/iPad is required to bid, and for anyone on reserve, obviously a cell ph.
And as you see here, I ONLY use those things for work related stuff...like using the APC forum to gather info on DL pubs emails!
And as you see here, I ONLY use those things for work related stuff...like using the APC forum to gather info on DL pubs emails!
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