Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-20-2012, 06:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,095
I don't know what the FOM says, but when I became sick on a layover, they allowed me to stay in the hotel until I was ready to fly home. And then I picked the flight, and they put me on it. No complaints.
05-20-2012, 07:00 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Stretch DC-9 Gear Slinger
Posts: 615
Thanks, KC10 great info
05-20-2012, 07:02 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Decoupled
Posts: 922
Originally Posted by Timbo
We still get paid by the minute, right?
Maybe they are 'short' for the month!
That was a joke, I do agree with your sentiments SF. But here's the problem. We are told to use all the automation, as much as possible, Vnav to the OM, etc. Flying is (or should be!) a eye-hand type skill, skills we all learned early on, and got to use all the time in the 727/DC9/DC8, what have you.
But to keep that skill, you have to PRACTICE once in a while. Just like a golf swing or racing catamarans, the more you practice, the better you get. But since the Airbus philosophy has taken 'hand flying' out of the realm of normal ops, and with that same mindset creeping into our Boeing training programs (757/767/777) well, in the Sim, they want to see you use the automation, all the time....so...when do you get to practice?
I still go out and fly a little taildragger, just to keep myself sharp, because I don't even get one landing per month on the 777. Thank God I have about a zillion landings in the 757/767 to fall back on, all but a couple Cat 3's in 12 years on it were hand flown, and they are similar enough to the 777 that old 757 habbits work well there. But for someone coming off of nothing but glass and magic, well, what do they have to fall back on when the magic quits, or confuses them?
In BOTH Air France incidents...it sounds like these guys have no idea what to do when the magic quits! I fear we are breeding a similar pilot, eventually, with our "automation all the time" policy. I agree we should be doing a lot more hand flying, on the line and in the sim, and more partial panel work in the sim.
Maybe they are 'short' for the month!
That was a joke, I do agree with your sentiments SF. But here's the problem. We are told to use all the automation, as much as possible, Vnav to the OM, etc. Flying is (or should be!) a eye-hand type skill, skills we all learned early on, and got to use all the time in the 727/DC9/DC8, what have you.
But to keep that skill, you have to PRACTICE once in a while. Just like a golf swing or racing catamarans, the more you practice, the better you get. But since the Airbus philosophy has taken 'hand flying' out of the realm of normal ops, and with that same mindset creeping into our Boeing training programs (757/767/777) well, in the Sim, they want to see you use the automation, all the time....so...when do you get to practice?
I still go out and fly a little taildragger, just to keep myself sharp, because I don't even get one landing per month on the 777. Thank God I have about a zillion landings in the 757/767 to fall back on, all but a couple Cat 3's in 12 years on it were hand flown, and they are similar enough to the 777 that old 757 habbits work well there. But for someone coming off of nothing but glass and magic, well, what do they have to fall back on when the magic quits, or confuses them?
In BOTH Air France incidents...it sounds like these guys have no idea what to do when the magic quits! I fear we are breeding a similar pilot, eventually, with our "automation all the time" policy. I agree we should be doing a lot more hand flying, on the line and in the sim, and more partial panel work in the sim.
When the HUD's out, I always gain a new level of respect for my FO's.
05-20-2012, 07:19 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,256
Originally Posted by ilinipilot
Reposted from the TA thread
The time value of money arguement is very apparent. It was mentioned at least 3 times at the c44 meeting and RA has been saying it any chance he gets at the check airman meetings. He has brought up airways, AA, even UCAL. The sad thing is people are buying it hook line and sinker. I spoke to a check airmen in the crew room this weekend and asked him if he heard the rumors 4 8 3 3, and what he thought.
His answer was its not great but I can take it. Its close to my survey numbers and its nice to have something in the pocket now and not have to wait for a while. Plus what really got me was his comment that we can make gains now and set the stage for our next contract. NO our next contract is NOW.
This is what scares me the most. We all read the message board and they seem pretty unified but how many pilots out there do not and are content with a POS like 4 8 3 3. I hope its not many but I am getting very worried something like that will pass.
PROVE ME WRONG FELLOW DELTA PILOTS
The time value of money arguement is very apparent. It was mentioned at least 3 times at the c44 meeting and RA has been saying it any chance he gets at the check airman meetings. He has brought up airways, AA, even UCAL. The sad thing is people are buying it hook line and sinker. I spoke to a check airmen in the crew room this weekend and asked him if he heard the rumors 4 8 3 3, and what he thought.
His answer was its not great but I can take it. Its close to my survey numbers and its nice to have something in the pocket now and not have to wait for a while. Plus what really got me was his comment that we can make gains now and set the stage for our next contract. NO our next contract is NOW.
This is what scares me the most. We all read the message board and they seem pretty unified but how many pilots out there do not and are content with a POS like 4 8 3 3. I hope its not many but I am getting very worried something like that will pass.
PROVE ME WRONG FELLOW DELTA PILOTS
The reality is that there are a bunch of little reasons management would like to get a contract done now. There are however no compelling reasons they need a contract complete. They are willing to spend a bit of money to get it done now but there is no reason to open your checkbook wide when you have the RLA in your back pocket. 5 more years under this contract can save the company a enormous amount of money. Not to mention if its a 3 year contract they don't have to negotiate another for 8 years.
I harbor no illusions about a no vote. The time value of money is real and the ability to be doing another contract in 2016 is huge verses 2020 or later. I will not however vote for a 4,8,3,3 contract. I realize in effect its a 12 percent raise at the amendable date but I am not going to vote for it if it makes it out of the MEC. I have emailed my rep and asked him for a no vote if that is in fact the offer. In the end it comes down to the company showing some respect for the sacrifices of the pilot group. We should know tomorrow if the rumors are accurate. I hope they are not but if it comes to pass they are correct then the company has stated loud and clear how they value the pilot group and its sacrifices.
Now back to your regularly scheduled channel to cue Carl to blame it all on ALPA.
05-20-2012, 07:21 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Do we have published pay rates for the 737-900 already?
05-20-2012, 07:24 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I posted on here a long time ago that pilots would be shocked at managements opener on pay. I don't know if 4,8,3,3 is accurate but I can tell you that their opener was a lot less. For reasons I don't understand many pilots you would consider intelligent think we have some kind of massive leverage on the company. When I ask them what it is and what kind of dollar value they attach to it they get a deer in the headlights look.
The reality is that there are a bunch of little reasons management would like to get a contract done now. There are however no compelling reasons they need a contract complete. They are willing to spend a bit of money to get it done now but there is no reason to open your checkbook wide when you have the RLA in your back pocket. 5 more years under this contract can save the company a enormous amount of money. Not to mention if its a 3 year contract they don't have to negotiate another for 8 years.
I harbor no illusions about a no vote. The time value of money is real and the ability to be doing another contract in 2016 is huge verses 2020 or later. I will not however vote for a 4,8,3,3 contract. I realize in effect its a 12 percent raise at the amendable date but I am not going to vote for it if it makes it out of the MEC. I have emailed my rep and asked him for a no vote if that is in fact the offer. In the end it comes down to the company showing some respect for the sacrifices of the pilot group. We should know tomorrow if the rumors are accurate. I hope they are not but if it comes to pass they are correct then the company has stated loud and clear how they value the pilot group and its sacrifices.
Now back to your regularly scheduled channel to cue Carl to blame it all on ALPA.
The reality is that there are a bunch of little reasons management would like to get a contract done now. There are however no compelling reasons they need a contract complete. They are willing to spend a bit of money to get it done now but there is no reason to open your checkbook wide when you have the RLA in your back pocket. 5 more years under this contract can save the company a enormous amount of money. Not to mention if its a 3 year contract they don't have to negotiate another for 8 years.
I harbor no illusions about a no vote. The time value of money is real and the ability to be doing another contract in 2016 is huge verses 2020 or later. I will not however vote for a 4,8,3,3 contract. I realize in effect its a 12 percent raise at the amendable date but I am not going to vote for it if it makes it out of the MEC. I have emailed my rep and asked him for a no vote if that is in fact the offer. In the end it comes down to the company showing some respect for the sacrifices of the pilot group. We should know tomorrow if the rumors are accurate. I hope they are not but if it comes to pass they are correct then the company has stated loud and clear how they value the pilot group and its sacrifices.
Now back to your regularly scheduled channel to cue Carl to blame it all on ALPA.
05-20-2012, 07:40 AM
meh
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 828
Originally Posted by newKnow
Do we have published pay rates for the 737-900 already?
Negligible.
FO increase from 800 to 7ER is $5.28for 12 yr FO, so the 900 is a bad "replacement" from pay perspective.
05-20-2012, 07:51 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: SEA7ERB
Posts: 177
I flew with numerous SLC capts last week that were not thrilled about the 4833, but ultimately sounded like they were ok with that.
I've heard a few guys pounding their chest over 45%, but more often than not it seems like ALPA has managed the expectations.
I've heard a few guys pounding their chest over 45%, but more often than not it seems like ALPA has managed the expectations.
05-20-2012, 07:56 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
Originally Posted by capncrunch
The sales pitch...
05-20-2012, 07:59 AM
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Posts: 845
Originally Posted by capncrunch
The sales pitch...
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