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Details on Delta TA

Old 07-08-2015, 05:57 AM
  #10271  
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If management really is going to give us a worse offer, why would they be pushing so hard for us to accept this TA. Bluffing
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:24 AM
  #10272  
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Would Delta really suffer from a status quo pilot contract after a NO vote?

http://ir.delta.com/files/Conference...001_t25a0p.pdf

The growth of the company and shareholder returns are the focus of our executive team so they will act prudently to continue the record profits while returning that money to the shareholders.

1. The Delta brand is built on customer service and personal interaction, this suffers if there is labor unrest. A prudent response would be to continue negotiations.

2. 3.B.4. is real and effective. This TA changes this and makes it ineffective in the future. If raises are granted on 12/31/2015 excluding the pilots from those raises, labor relations will suffer. The flight attendants representing 30+% of the non pilot labor force will attempt another union drive around the first of the year which will compound the labor issue. If they get raises, we do too. Once UA and AA book their raises on 1/1/2016 Delta's next non pilot raise will trigger a review and increase.

3. Growing the company is now a question of markets outside the U.S. With a stable industry and sensible capacity management the industry will continue to earn profits. A price war for market share is highly unlikely in the domestic market. The easiest and most efficient way to grow the international business is through JVs and code shares. The future will require our being very careful about these agreements and the production balances. The next step on the growth ladder is to industrialized the company. This means gathering brands that are recognized by the locals in other countries and growing them while associating the brand with Delta. We already have several examples of this: Virgin Atlantic, GOL, Aeromexico which are partly owned by Delta and are turning around their respective companies now generating profits where losses were. The other growth strategy is vertical integration of the supply and distribution chains. This has also occurred with the purchase of Trainer and the bookings migrating to Delta outlets like Delta.com.

The company will continue to grow and develop the brand with or without this deal. The dollars may not increase much, perhaps adding 3% to the first two years of the deal resulting in 11/9/3/3 with the real deal being 11/3/3/3 with the profit sharing give back or the QOL affecting "needs" will be lessened. Delta as a company and a brand has more to lose than gain form not engaging us after the NO vote. This executive team has a track record of success and it will continue. With a $1.7B loss on hedges absorbed this year the marginal increases we are asking for are well within the affordable range. The profits only increase with the hedge losses behind us now.

Last edited by notEnuf; 07-08-2015 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:35 AM
  #10273  
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Originally Posted by dc10guy View Post
At least they can say, it's a cost neutral contract again.
Ual thinks at best it's cost neutral and given what Barons said about without, probably, costing out the concessions, I don't think it will make it to cost neutral.

Which is why imho pass or fail the product of this nc and mec will be remembered poorly by pilots from every airline for a very long time.

Pilot 1 "Remember that time when Delta was setting historical records and their MEC agreed to 8% raise plus concessions?"

Pilot 2 "oh yeah, what happened then b machining did the pilots vote that down?"

Pilot 1 "believe it or not they..."



To be continued.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:05 AM
  #10274  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid View Post
Ual thinks at best it's cost neutral and given what Barons said about without, probably, costing out the concessions, I don't think it will make it to cost neutral.

Which is why imho pass or fail the product of this nc and mec will be remembered poorly by pilots from every airline for a very long time.

Pilot 1 "Remember that time when Delta was setting historical records and their MEC agreed to 8% raise plus concessions?"

Pilot 2 "oh yeah, what happened then b machining did the pilots vote that down?"

Pilot 1 "believe it or not they..."



To be continued.
I unemotionally believe that it is cost positive for the company regardless of the guidance from outside financial institutions. IOWs, use Gloopy's logic on gifting them back $100m and removing the concessions and see what they say...I can tell you it'll be no deal.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:10 AM
  #10275  
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Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez View Post
I would say that since they are paying 1/4 of the profits to the employees in bonuses, the activist investors/hedge fund managers/institutional investors, you know, the owners, are wondering where their cut is. Just a guess.
Plenty of successful companies are employee-centered, some way more than DAL. We paid for that profit-sharing with bankruptcy concessions. Now that they are printing money they want to "tweak" it a little.

I couldn't give two flying poops what the investors (oops, "owners") think. We are labor, not management.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:29 AM
  #10276  
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The time is NOW!
I didn’t imagine I would start out my career at a Major airline fighting such an important battle against reverse pattern bargaining of work rules.
Increase Vacation-->add :15 pay no credit really? That is pure deception and does nothing more than increase our effective pay-rates NOT a GAIN in QOL.
Increase Training Pay-->:15 Pay no Credit. No QOL Gain
OE Trip drops-->Reverse pattern down to United. Why not let the company assign us our trips without bidding? We cannot let this go. I don’t care how many people if effects, it’s out of seniority trip pulls by the company.
Sick Leave-->QOL loss, no question
Pay Rates-->We should expect the highest pay in the industry. So should everyone that signs a contract during profitable times. That is Pattern Bargaining UP
Work rules will only get more expensive and more challenging to get back with the massive retirements coming. I don’t want to be fighting the next 20 years to get QOL back. The company will be more than willing to pay us more to work more in the future. They won’t be willing to give back QOL work-rules.
The time is NOW to stop the reverse pattern bargaining.
HOLD THE LINE and VOTE NO!
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:54 AM
  #10277  
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Why is it that the pilot group is the only employee group to NOT be back to their pre-bankruptcy wages? By my math the other employee groups are 6% above their pre-cut wages and management’s percentage is off the chart. Last I heard we are about 18% below our C2K 2004 rates.

I know that we didn’t get help by Moak putting out a memo that we had achieved our pre-bankruptcy wages a couple of years ago. On the surface the memo was true. We had made it back to the rates that we had right before we went into BK, however it gave us no credit for the 32% pay cut we took to attempt to keep the company out of bankruptcy. How did that bankruptcy protection letter work out for us?

This is the point; every time the company has needed help we stepped up and made it happen. We may not have liked it but at the end of the day we understood that a healthy company is in our best interest. We also thought that once the bad times were over we would be rewarded for our sacrifices. The union continually said that our time will come and even when we were making a profit in 2012 they said that the time was not quite right but soon.

Now the company is basically printing money. The good times are here but for some strange reason instead of being made whole, like the rest of the employees, we are being torn apart internally. We are being offered a contract of the same value as the one in 2012, while the company makes 4 to 5 times the money.

The way I understand the negotiations went is that the company came in and stated that they wanted a deal by July 1 and they had some big wants that needed to be addressed (sick, PS and productivity 23G5). These sections were addressed earlier in the negotiations and section 3 was addressed last, which is normal. What was not what I consider normal, was the company at this point said here you go last best offer take it or leave it with regard to section 3. This left our negotiators with the unenviable task of taking this TA to the MEC which barely sent it to MEMRAT.

There is much talk of “Did we leave money on the table?” The answer is always NO! How can that be, since the company is making so much money right now? The answer is simple and has been stated by union reps. This is how much the company is WILLING to pay and how much they put a value on the pilots. The money is there and is available just not to us. I guarantee you this. If this TA passes and before the ink is dry they will announce pay and QOL increases to the other employee groups. So the money is there it’s just a matter if we are willing to fight for it.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:20 AM
  #10278  
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Originally Posted by DALMD88FO View Post
Why is it that the pilot group is the only employee group to NOT be back to their pre-bankruptcy wages? By my math the other employee groups are 6% above their pre-cut wages and management’s percentage is off the chart. Last I heard we are about 18% below our C2K 2004 rates.

I know that we didn’t get help by Moak putting out a memo that we had achieved our pre-bankruptcy wages a couple of years ago. On the surface the memo was true. We had made it back to the rates that we had right before we went into BK, however it gave us no credit for the 32% pay cut we took to attempt to keep the company out of bankruptcy. How did that bankruptcy protection letter work out for us?



This is the point; every time the company has needed help we stepped up and made it happen. We may not have liked it but at the end of the day we understood that a healthy company is in our best interest. We also thought that once the bad times were over we would be rewarded for our sacrifices. The union continually said that our time will come and even when we were making a profit in 2012 they said that the time was not quite right but soon.

Now the company is basically printing money. The good times are here but for some strange reason instead of being made whole, like the rest of the employees, we are being torn apart internally. We are being offered a contract of the same value as the one in 2012, while the company makes 4 to 5 times the money.

The way I understand the negotiations went is that the company came in and stated that they wanted a deal by July 1 and they had some big wants that needed to be addressed (sick, PS and productivity 23G5). These sections were addressed earlier in the negotiations and section 3 was addressed last, which is normal. What was not what I consider normal, was the company at this point said here you go last best offer take it or leave it with regard to section 3. This left our negotiators with the unenviable task of taking this TA to the MEC which barely sent it to MEMRAT.

There is much talk of “Did we leave money on the table?” The answer is always NO! How can that be, since the company is making so much money right now? The answer is simple and has been stated by union reps. This is how much the company is WILLING to pay and how much they put a value on the pilots. The money is there and is available just not to us. I guarantee you this. If this TA passes and before the ink is dry they will announce pay and QOL increases to the other employee groups. So the money is there it’s just a matter if we are willing to fight for it.

FAs have proven pre bankruptcy pay is now exceeded by all employees but us during their union drive.

Last edited by notEnuf; 07-08-2015 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:12 AM
  #10279  
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Originally Posted by notEnuf View Post
FAs have proven pre bankruptcy pay is now exceeded by all employees but us during their union drive.
But you were overpaid then.

Or that's what I gather from the lack of a conversation about it.
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Old 07-08-2015, 09:50 AM
  #10280  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid View Post
Ual thinks at best it's cost neutral and given what Barons said about without, probably, costing out the concessions, I don't think it will make it to cost neutral.

Which is why imho pass or fail the product of this nc and mec will be remembered poorly by pilots from every airline for a very long time.

Pilot 1 "Remember that time when Delta was setting historical records and their MEC agreed to 8% raise plus concessions?"

Pilot 2 "oh yeah, what happened then b machining did the pilots vote that down?"

Pilot 1 "believe it or not they..."



To be continued.
Even the no voting reps agreed in their long letter the net value of the contract was 1.1 billion.
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