I haven't "fallen" for anything. I haven't even voted yet. What I am, is tired of all the hyperbole I am reading on these forums. Emotional propaganda that has little basis in fact other than a handful of buzzwords. Is this TA a great deal? Not by any stretch of imagination. Is it the "turd" or "insult" or "disrespect" that some of you are saying? Not by any stretch of imagination. The truth as always is somewhere in the middle.

I do know this much. If it fails, I hope that some of the loudmouths are going to step up and get us a better one. We'll be counting on you to put our money where your mouth is.

 

There are guys with 30+ years left here staring down these draconian QOL hits.

Because if this is the best we can do now, these concessions will be with us forever.

Actually, they won't be with us forever. They'll only get more draconian and punative in the next downturn. Or in the next boom. It doesn't matter. Times are bad...we concede. Times are good...we concede.

It's incomprehensible. And reprehensible. Now I must drink myself insensible.

So yes, they are devastating when compounded over multiple decades. It's the time-value of concessions. I ask the older guys not already voting "no" to please put yourselves in the younger guys' shoes and look at the path this POS could put us on.

 

C2012 is a better one.

 

Well C12 was a POS. I read that hundreds of times on here. So let's go back to the bankruptcy contract then. That had to be better. No? How about C2K. You want to ride along for all the IOEs? That was in THAT "better" contract. 96? 92? How far back do you want to go to get a better contract?

Be careful what you wish for. You best know of whence you speak (or something like that)

 

you almost got 'em all there PD. lol

 

Haha. Im angry but I judged this TA on merit. This happens to be right up my alley as my BS and MBA degrees are all in this area, and I did union work for 3 years.

Scope permitted arrangements with foreign carriers govern that. The limits are set and the company is free to sell tickets on other carriers to those limits. Right now we have a VA JV, Air France/KLM/Alitalia JV, and Virgin Australia JV. There will be a China (Eastern) JV coming soon, and all this new TA language will do is set a precedent for loose metrics. Knowing the company wants metrics that absolve them of violating the JV ratio every year thus far, and all of a sudden they would be in compliance under the new TA, why wouldn't they take this language and ram it through with the future China JV? Do you honestly believe were not going to JV in China? This is a big deal, its our future growth (or lack there of).

 

We are pilots, we are out matched when it comes to analyzing business motivations and the impact of contract language. There are some very smart pilots who have business degrees and experience among us. This rhetoric is why they don't want to be political figures. Set the pride and ego aside and ask why the executive team doesn't make bets on their ability to land a jet?

 

Business degrees don't mean anything. Business experience and seeing opportunities and dangers is what matters.

 

All of the above are important. A business degree is useless if you dont have any business sense, and some of the best business people do not have a business background (RA is a lawyer).

The problem is we are very easy to take advantage of. Pilots rarely admit when theyre outmatched. But we are when it comes to negotiations, plain and simple.

The fact that this TA is still likely to pass despite all the harm it causes, is a great example of our pilots not having any business sense.

The fact that pilots got intimidated by RA's recent threat and changed their NO vote to a YES vote shows just how weak we are (sigh).

I want great things for our pilot group. We have a chance to collectively kill this TA. We hold the keys. Why wouldnt we apply some business sense and take control of the situation?

 

They give a person an understanding of accounting and business principles like focus on investor returns, the importance of market environment and how to analyze the likelihood of returns. Having both business and science degrees I see more value in the business degree in evaluating the TA.

I wonder who will be getting China Eastern's new non-public shares.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...v414769_6k.htm