Why do you attack me? I haven't attacked anyone.


That's the same thing.

That's the same thing.

You still haven't addressed the argument. You called me "foolish" and "stubborn" and cited two pretty clear examples of making economic decisions based on some past loss.

If history was erased and you had to make a decision on what the maximum we could possibly get in the next contract would it be the same number of whatever you define "restoration" as?

So the MEC said "restoration" in 2001 and the company gave in? The final contract didn't have anything to do with the economics of the times?

Also, when did the MEC do Family Awareness meetings for C2001? I realize I asked this before but no one replied and I'm genuinely curious.

Since you didn't quote who said all that gar-bage, and I haven't read it elsewhere, I think it is safe to assume it was Carl. It has his fingerprints all over it. You just have to remember that he's the smartest man in the room.... just like he told you. You don't have to attack him personally, just his so-called facts, and his panties will get all bunched up. Ain't it fun to watch?

Correct. It was Carl.

Do you remember the timing of the Family Awareness events for C2001?

Offhand I don't... sorry. I know it didn't seem to be as visible as FamAware for POS 96 was. Of course I lived in Utah for that one and I was a coordinator for my town, and in Florida where I lived for C2K I was not as involved.

Carl is 100% correct. It's not about recouping our losses. I used the investment analogy to make a point. I wasn't saying it's a perfect apples to apples analogy to what we're going through.

I figure the average Delta pilot who's been here for the past 10 years has contributed (through pay cuts, benefit losses, and stagnation) an average of $100K per year to Delta's recovery. That's $1 million per pilot! Pretty generous contribution to help your employer get through a bad spot! :eek: And nobody I know of (including myself) is saying we should be repaid for what we've already contributed. We're just suggesting it should be made right going forward.

Our industry has been significantly restructured in a way that should result in greater stability with more consistent profits. Our company is clearly the leader in terms of running a good airline and in terms of profits. Pilot costs are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Full restoration of our buying power could probably be accomplished by netting something like $3 or $4 more per passenger. They invented $25 bag fees out of thin air and have no problem collecting them. I'm not buying that they couldn't find a way to net $3 or $4 more to stop paying us as if the company was on the verge of bankruptcy. But right now, they just don't have to. Why pay more for pilots when the pilot's representation constantly indicates that they're just fine with things the way they are?

Oberon, are you bucking for a management and/or DALPA position once you get off of probation? Just trying to figure out what your angle is.

My angle is rational thought. I enjoy fact based debate. "Restoration" seems like an irrational objective. Not because it is too high but because it's based on nothing a mediator is likely to consider during negotiations. It's a desperate argument in a situation that doesn't require it.

Here are some facts a mediator is likely to consider. Delta is making billions, seriously billions! Comparable pilot groups have comparable contracts. It'd be better if comparable pilot groups had better contracts but at least there is no US Airways out there making 40% less than us. Hell, the worst out there right now is probably Jet Blue and they just voted in ALPA because they aren't happy about it. Our company values labor peace to the point they talk about it to investors. We hold the keys to labor peace and if the company wants it they are going to have to pay for it.

These are all good things. Really good things. This is a really good environment to negotiate yet some here want our representatives to scream "restoration" and (figuratively) kick management in the nuts. Great idea. The minute you do that you lose any chance of monetizing labor peace over something a mediator likely doesn't care about. This doesn't make sense to me.

Is everyone who disagrees with you bucking for a management position? Serious question........that seems to be your usual comeback

Nobody is saying that. It's not about screaming and kicking. It's about identifying (and at least to some degree quantifying) what it is you're trying to achieve. And then go about working in a professional and determined way to achieve it.

You've properly identified the fact that this is a good environment in which to negotiate. You've properly identified the fact that we hold the keys to labor peace. Take a good, hard look at DALPA's track record. Take a good, hard look at what they consider to be a "win." Read the following article and realize that our ALPA President was MEC Chairman at Delta and is essentially the author of the playbook from which DALPA is still operating today:

Airline Profits Will Drive 2015 Pilot Contract Talks - Businessweek

Still think we're going to get this profession and our careers back to any semblance of the standard of living it provided through most of the 1980's, 1990's, and early 2000's? Not a chance with this kind of mentality. :mad:

I agree, but neither will you win many games without a balanced attack. You have to know the other teams strengths and weaknesses as well as your own, and you have to know how to put the most points on the board throughout the game.

You don't attempt 50-yard passes on each and every play. You take what the defense is showing and move the ball down the field. Nor do you normally go for a TD when you're inside the 20 and it's 4th and 10. You settle for a field goal because you know that the likely alternative is turning the ball over with nothing to show for it.

That is how you amass a winning record over the long run.