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Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1734264)

But if you're going to include the value of Lee's DC housing, transportation, etc., wouldn't you then need to include the value of our housing while on the road (hotels), transportation (hotel vans), and per diem in our total compensation package?

No Alan and here's why. Pilots travel in the course of their actual work. Most times that work travel requires a hotel away from base. That is rightly paid for by the company and rightly recognized by the IRS as not being income. An office worker (Moak) does not travel away from base when said office worker is at the office. Thus no hotel or housing is required because...it's his base. Now if your company (ALPA) provides it for you anyway, it's considered residential housing at your base. This allows you to keep more of your other money that others have to use for their housing, thus the IRS rightly recognizes this as income. Same with meals, same with cars.

Since you're really struggling with an analogy as the one you're trying to use is collapsing around you, allow me to throw you a lifeline. The correct analogy would be Delta paying for the housing, car and meals of a commuting pilot before and after the trip. If Delta did that, the IRS would rightly consider that income. Why? Because paying for commuting expenses allows you to keep more of your salary.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herkflyr (Post 1734288)

"Limited" upside? Are you kidding me? Tbe ADG (applicable to reserves and dh-only duty periods, both firsts in the history of our airline) is probably one of the best two or three contractual improvements EVER, and guys like you are just "meh."

Unbelievable. I don't care if it took a few months to program the company computers. All changes have an implementation schedule, including changes in the company's favor.

(Ask an old guy about getting rid of partial month moveups for reserves in C2K; those were a great scheduling deal that we voluntarily negotiated away in C2K; it was a big "win" for the company but it still took a year to get them programmed out of the company computers--see, it goes both ways.)

The ADG is now in our contract forever. Within a year the entire seniority list will be wondering how we ever allowed the pilot group NOT to have it--you know, kind of like how back in the pre-117 and pre-121/Whitlow days you could be on perpetual short call 24/7. It was accepted as "part of the job" back in the good ol' days, but is inconceivable now.

Your groupthink Moak and ALPA hatefest on this thread is leading you to dismiss significant changes. After all, if you actually acknowledge the huge gain the ADG represents, that interferes with the "ALPA sucks" mindset that let's face it, is kind of fun to embrace.

You can't possibly say this yet Herkflyr. None of us has any idea how the company might build rotations to mitigate ADG 5:15. It could be a big deal, and it could be a big nothing. We won't know until after implementation.

Regarding something in our contract being "in our contract forever", you may want to revise that remark. Anything can be removed either voluntarily or by force of a BK judge. More importantly however is that your union can effectively remove it by not defending the language. Would you like a few examples of that?

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timbo (Post 1734368)

Heresy!

Everybody knows nobody could EVER get a 42% RAISE, in one fell swoop!!:eek:

Just ask anyone at Dalpa! :rolleyes:

Richard's getting paid, no doubt, remind me again, how much was his pay cut in 2004 to Save Delta?

And does he still have a retirement plan??

Absolutely right Timbo. Remember the immortal words of tsquare: "Baby steps people...baby steps."

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1734504)

That is rightly paid for by the company and rightly recognized by the IRS as not being income.

There is nothing "right" about it. It's a standard practice at airlines, just as provided lodging for a pilot doing work at ALPA is a standard practice. Either way, it saves the employee the expense of having to provide it out of pocket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1734504)

The correct analogy would be Delta paying for the housing, car and meals of a commuting pilot before and after the trip. If Delta did that, the IRS would rightly consider that income. Why? Because paying for commuting expenses allows you to keep more of your salary.

For example, when Delta pays for a pilot's hotel when he is training at his base? Or when NWA used to provide positive space travel for commuting instructors to NATCO and give them hotels during stretches of sim periods?

Was that considered income?

Quote:

Originally Posted by orvil (Post 1734490)

...if we go into bankruptcy again, is there anything to stop the Company from cancelling your 2,200 hour bank? My guess is the judge will sign that little account away in a heartbeat.

Well, that did not occur at NWA, UAL, or AA in their bankruptcies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 1734437)

Ok Carl, humor me a bit after all I am a bit slow. You call me names all the time so I know you understand that.
Wages and salaries are up. Retirement expenses are up even more with the 1% increase and funding needs for the NWA plan. Productivity is about the same as verified by block hours per pilot and total system hours verses pilots hired.
So where is this almost half a billion dollars per year they are saving with contract 2012? What is it and where can I find it in the reports?

Answering a question by asking more questions doesn't work bud. You know better than that. So here's my post again for you to actually answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1734395)

Here we go again for at least the tenth time. The quarterly and annual reports do not show Pilot COSTS. They show WAGES AND SALARIES. Do you know the difference? If so, please explain the difference between pilot wages/salaries and pilot costs.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1734389)

You're the first to assert (2.5 years after the fact) that "cost neutral" was never uttered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1734456)

Hardly....

Actually you are Alan. Nobody before has attempted to say Richard and Ed never said it. Others have tried to explain away what they meant by "cost neutral", but nobody has said it never happened. Only you.

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Shore (Post 1734460)

As I understand it, ALPA reimburses any pilot who does not live in the location at which he is working for the cost of his accommodations. This ranges anywhere from a hotel room at an MEC meeting, to the apartment in ATL in which the MEC Chairman stays when he is in the office, to the apartment in DC in which the ALPA President stays while he is at work.

Some amount of this is considered taxable income by the IRS, although I have no idea how much. That's not the same thing as saying that it's spendable income, any more than the hotel, transportation, and per diem that Delta provides us on a layover or while in training.

Argue with accounting standards and the IRS all you want. You just look foolish doing so.

Your effort at saving face is valiant Alan, but your structure ain't lookin too good.

http://holykaw.alltop.com/wp-content...atic_HvJII.jpg

Carl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1734512)

Absolutely right Timbo. Remember the immortal words of tsquare: "Baby steps people...baby steps."

Carl

That would be ok if I had 30 years to go, but most of us don't have time for Baby Steps. We've had 10 years of baby steps, and we are nowhere near what we had 10 years ago.

We are making BILLIONS PER QUARTER for Delta, it's payback time...NOW, not 10 years from now.

So, to recap:

1. DALPA has no goals, and won't even mention Restoration in our lifetime.

2. Because they have no defined goals, they have no strategy for achieving anything, other than baby steps.

3. According to Alfa, marching in uniform and informational picketing is so old school, it'll never work now because......

4. Labor Risk has been taken off the table

5. Our contracts are mature

OK, any questions?

Just hurry up and sign up for the next 3% COLA contract with the bankruptcy pay rates in force for the rest of our careers.:rolleyes:

We'll never get to the 3% raises on C2012 because something else big is coming.

Don't you remember?