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Originally Posted by index
(Post 1875376)
Wait. That's your idea of how this works??? You think we would end up with less by asking for more? But by asking for less, under your surrender strategy, we will end up with more? BIZARRE. It's no wonder we're screwed.
Not by asking for more. Don't be ridiculous. By asking for an amount that no one would EVER agree to. Like when you're negotiating to buy a house. You low ball and the other person just walks away. A true negotiating strategy is to ask for something that will clearly benefit you but so much as to totally sour the entire negotiations. |
Originally Posted by ERflyer
(Post 1875383)
Not by asking for more. Don't be ridiculous. By asking for an amount that no one would EVER agree to.
.... A true negotiating strategy is to ask for something that will clearly benefit you but so much as to totally sour the entire negotiations. What will it take to convince you that your "strategy" has been proven worthless? |
Originally Posted by ERflyer
(Post 1875278)
You're lacking a strong debate strategy.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 1875390)
We were bent over at the negotiating table during c12, Far117, NRT block hours, VA JV, and more using your appeasement technique.
What will it take to convince you that your "strategy" has been proven worthless? C2012 was a good, though not great, contract. FAR 117 negotiations were a huge win for the pilots. 5.15 ADG, and applicable to reserves was a giant improvement...or do you long for the "good ol' days" where a two day trip would pay a reserve four hours? (when I got hired 18 years ago EVERY reserve was on automatic SC at 0300 on his first on call day; "good ol' days?" I think nyet) JV are "to be determined" in my book but not yet the epic fail you claim. The NRT block hours agreement was a realization on DALPA's part (but not yours) that the world changes and we better not keep our head in the sand and pretend that it is 1992 forever. I would rather have a percentage of flying guarantee for the entire Pacific than continue to cling to an increasingly irrelevant and outdated NRT-only agreement. |
Originally Posted by ERflyer
(Post 1875383)
Not by asking for more. Don't be ridiculous. By asking for an amount that no one would EVER agree to.
Like when you're negotiating to buy a house. You low ball and the other person just walks away. A true negotiating strategy is to ask for something that will clearly benefit you but so much as to totally sour the entire negotiations. WHO gets to decided what is "Realistic" when we negotiate with the company? Reality has to be shaped. Reality is, the pilot group gave unprecedented concessions in LOA 46 and 51 and lost their DB plan too, providing Delta with Billions to save the company. That is the REALITY. Today, Delta is making unprecedented profits, and projecting more next year, LOTS MORE. That's realistic. We should be making lots more too, considering how many BILLIONS WE GAVE THEM. The pilot group, the NMB, the Media, and most importantly, The COMPANY all need to be reminded exactly how much MONEY (real money, not TVM) this pilot group has contributed to Delta's unprecedented profits. They way to do that is to gen up the Family Awareness groups, talk to the media and the NMB, and make it clear to them all, that we expect to be RESTORED to Pre-Bankruptcy Pay and Benefit levels. That is not an 'unrealistic' ask in my opinion, not if you show the math and show how much more Management is making today, and show Wall Street how much our stock is worth today and show the shareholders how much more they are making with all the dividends and stock buybacks propping up the price. Restoration is realistic, but not if you don't ask. You can do it proactively, but you need to let Management know, we will not continue to play nice if we are not restored. The minute RA said, "Labor risk has been totally taken off the table..." would have been a great time to remind him, no, it's not. We can do this the hard way, or we can do it the easy way. RA can have a new contract tomorrow, all he has to do is write the check, and presto, no labor risk. But unless he sees that we are serious about this, why should he do that? |
Originally Posted by ERflyer
(Post 1875355)
That is true to a point. Management will roll over you but each situation is unique. I believe our current series of gains is unique and these are slightly different times.
Management will always roll you over. I forgot this: "This represents an important and necessary milestone in Delta's restructuring and we are pleased we were able to work constructively with all parties involved to satisfactorily resolve what is an extremely important and complex issue," said Edward Bastian, Delta's chief financial officer. and this: http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/...-pension-plans https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/09/nwa-s19.html The list goes on and on. Retiring CEO Leo Mullin, who was paid $13 million in compensation in 2001, was given 22 years of instant seniority—although he worked for Delta for only five-and-half years—boosting his retirement package to $16 million. While incoming CEO Gerald Grinstein took a ceremonial pay reduction to bolster the company’s demands for sweeping employee wage and pension cuts, behind the scenes other executives were cashing in on the benefits of their golden parachutes. Former CEO Ronald Allen, who was forced out in 1997, continued to draw $500,000 a year from Delta for consulting services up until 2005, although neither the company nor Allen would say whether he ever provided any such services. Allen’s exit package also included a $4.5 million cash severance payment and a $765,000-a-year pension that continues. He also got 10 years’ worth of perks, such as a 2,090-square-foot Buckhead, Georgia office, a car and club memberships provided by Delta. |
Methinks I smell another Lumberg or IAV8 :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Timbo
(Post 1875039)
I agree 100%. I want the 'net worth' of my DB plan restored ($1.4 Million, 10 years ago) but I want it all in the bank of my choosing, IN MY NAME, not another hand job by the company.
Here's some quick math in public. 2004 757/767 Capt. rate was about $265/hr. x 1000hrs./yr (and that's only flying 82 hours a month)= $ 265,000 per year. Our DB retirement was 60% Final Average Earnings, which for that number above is $159,000 per year, for the rest of your life. Let's say you retire at 65 and die at 85. 20 years of $159,000 = $3,180,000. That was our retirement plan. 60% FAE for the rest of your life, and when you died, 50% of it went to your spouse until she died. Now, how long is it going to take you to put that amount of money into your DC plan, at 15% of what ever you are making for your career? Let's take that amount, and divide it by 30 years of service. Hired at 35, retire at 65. You would have to put away $106,000 PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR, to accumulate that much. Think your measly little 15% per year is ever going to do that for you? Now, let's say over the course of your 30 year career, from new hire pay to end rate, you averaged $200K/yr. and the company put 15% of that into your DC plan, or $30K per year...for 30 years. What did that cost the company? $900,000 vs. the $3,180,000 under the old 60% FAE. Yeah, that's why we have a DC plan. $30,000*30 years*11.22℅ interest (30 year S&P annualized average ending in 2014) = apx. $6,200,000 $6.2 million - $3.2 million = $3 million that belongs to the company under a DB plan or belongs to the individual under a DC plan. |
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
(Post 1875390)
We were bent over at the negotiating table during c12, Far117, NRT block hours, VA JV, and more using your appeasement technique.
What will it take to convince you that your "strategy" has been proven worthless? What will it take to convince you that you're wrong? We have the best contract of any legacy carrier. The only carrier, including cargo , who makes more than me is FedEx. Do I want more? Absolutely. |
Originally Posted by cni187
(Post 1875408)
PBGC inherits Delta pilot pensions as 6th largest claim - MarketWatch
Management will always roll you over. I forgot this: "This represents an important and necessary milestone in Delta's restructuring and we are pleased we were able to work constructively with all parties involved to satisfactorily resolve what is an extremely important and complex issue," said Edward Bastian, Delta's chief financial officer. and this: The 10 Biggest Failed Pension Plans - US News https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/09/nwa-s19.html The list goes on and on. Retiring CEO Leo Mullin, who was paid $13 million in compensation in 2001, was given 22 years of instant seniority—although he worked for Delta for only five-and-half years—boosting his retirement package to $16 million. While incoming CEO Gerald Grinstein took a ceremonial pay reduction to bolster the company’s demands for sweeping employee wage and pension cuts, behind the scenes other executives were cashing in on the benefits of their golden parachutes. Former CEO Ronald Allen, who was forced out in 1997, continued to draw $500,000 a year from Delta for consulting services up until 2005, although neither the company nor Allen would say whether he ever provided any such services. Allen’s exit package also included a $4.5 million cash severance payment and a $765,000-a-year pension that continues. He also got 10 years’ worth of perks, such as a 2,090-square-foot Buckhead, Georgia office, a car and club memberships provided by Delta. Both were terrible managers. Leo was also unethical. So here we are. We all, well most of us, know what happened. Where do we go from here? We only disagree on our strategy going forward from here. |
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