Irony :rolleyes:

Isn't it? When did Bender show up?

Oh yeah, right when the rush negotiations started. You know, the negotiations where the timing of them is controlled by the company.

Remember. Those that control the pace of negotiations win. Every time.

It's just tsquare. He said he was quitting the board but couldn't stay away for more than a month or 2.

For all those screaming 'restoration!!!' Like a crazed lunatic. Does anyone remember WHY that contract had those rates?

So which do we want. A contract that leads most of the industry? Or a contract that leads the industry AND gives back all the scope that was surrendered in C2K????

Restoration is an empty and fallacious rallying cry. And it needs to be dropped.

We need industry leading rates and work rules. Period.

And we need to wait until the TA(if we get one) is finished.

I could see that. The people who say they voted no for C2K often point to the scope as being the reason why. And I kind of believe them, because C2K is one of those rare contracts where you do find people who said they voted yes.

I tend to agree with this as well.

The problem with waiting until the TA is finished is that it's too late then. I do kind of believe that if we had voted no on C2012, things would have been dragged out longer. I think the FA's were in the middle of a union drive. Had we sent our contract back, RA wouldn't have wanted to send the message to the FA's that unions can get them a lot more money, so he would have stonewalled us.

I'd rather have the opportunity, like we did with the CDO's, to head things off before we reach a TA but I know that's not possible, really.

Once the TA is done, it's over in my opinion. The sales job starts full force and every venue has it's share of DALPA guys fighting for a yes vote. I guarantee, and this isn't a slam to my fellow pilots, but it seems every vote ends up being 60% for, + or - 2%.

I remember during the second round of pay cuts, during BK, I felt the cuts were more drastic than necessary. I told my rep this during a lounge visit. He said, very diplomatically, that I needed to gather all the information I could and make an informed decision that I thought was best for me and my family. I said I had read all the information and I was voting no. He started arguing with me that I hadn't seen the company business plan and the fleet plan. Great things were right around the corner [Im paraphrasing]. But basically he was saying, once he saw my opinion differed from theirs, was I didn't have the information he had so I should just trust him.

If I just vote yes, the biggest aircraft order in the history of aviation was going to happen as soon as we exit BK, was another talking point from Gold bug Jr. on the DALPA boards.

The company knows we are suckers for aircraft orders. I'm surprised we haven't heard of any big new orders yet. They're saving their ace in the hole for two days after the TA is released I guess.

You are making an apples and Ferrari comparison here. Yes both can be red. But the FAR117 loa and a section 6 negotiation are two different animals governed by different rules.

What you are asking for, by asking to peek under the hood, is to negotiate in public. And that fails everyone every time.

And as far as a sales job? I dunno. It seems to me nobody here is going to 'buy' something they don't want to. So why is everyone *****ing about dalpa doing road shows to describe the TA's and what we got so that people can make up their minds?

The language used by you and others play the role off a passive aggressive victim. It's just a contract guys and gals. You aren't being forced into unnatural acts with a goat because your family is being held hostage by the goat liberation army of greater lilliput. It's a yes or no question in the end.

Yes. I like your TA Union of delta pilots. Thank you. I accept that.

Or.

No. No I do not like your TA Union of delta (not my Union) pilots. please refer to this handy manual: 'how to love a goat: baaaaad things and good things to know' and then go get us a better contract.

If you or anyone else would like the TA process changed you need to change ALPA governance first. This is what rules our process.

Yeah.....that's the point the swing voters are the ones who maybe skim the ALPA sales emails at best. They believe the sales job. They do not go out of their way for any additional information. So you are right.....this has to be cut off at the pass.....before a TA. Otherwise the machine will ensure it passes 50+ % at all costs.

No, it is much more fun to scream how bad everything is at the top of your lungs before anything has been presented.

Like you, I'll read anything that is presented and make my own decision. I won't be swayed by DPA or ALPA talking points. If it meets what I need, I'll vote yes. If not, I'll vote no.

The fact that this place has gone to DefCon 4 already is both amusing and pathetic.