If you want to discuss Section 3.... my minimum is 12%. The logic is straightforward and obvious. All you have to do is read the contract comparison.

I win.

Yeah I saw that (the bold) and I get it with respect to NYC, but it kind of doesn't explain why we stay at some of these other places. The reason we were told for years we wouldn't go to downtown JAN was because it wasn't safe, well, we're back to downtown.

I guess, how does it work? I've heard conflicting stories supposedly of how hotels get chosen and I'm kind of curious. Can ALPA say you're not putting our crews in these locations or is that solely up to the company until the company decides on a non-downtown location then ALPA must approve?

It seems like everything is oriented to finding a downtown even if it is the most illogical choice you could make. PHF was a great example. Across the road basically from the airport is the largest/safest/best mall in the area and packed with the typical ancillary stuff surrounding it, but, contract says downtown so off they went to a dump somewhere near Williamsburg- but not really. Then when crews complained they decided to go find another downtown and decided on the not so safe and nearly dead downtown in my hometown of Hampton, which is a half hour away. To get there you passed two major commercial shopping areas.

ASA and AirTran crews meanwhile drove across the street and were better off in every way. It's something I see in some locations where you pass decent locals and safe areas to drive to a dead downtown nobody goes too, except it has this one bar, maybe, sometimes open, otherwise you have the hotel restaurant and 15% off. :rolleyes:

I would like to see the downtown requirement stricken except for those locations where ALPA says we must be downtown (SFO, BOS, ORD/MDW, NYC, etc) and those need to be cemented into the contract so they don't ever change.

Is that 12% date of signing? what about years 2 and 3?

Is the 12% assuming we do not take a reduction in profit sharing?

Jerry

As long as we have the stupidity of bigger pays more it's not necessarily 12% for all fleets. When the clue bird comes home and we realize that there are gonna be a bunch of paycuts when the whales DO go to the desert... and make no mistake... they will.... ya'll will understand why all fleets don't get the same raise. My preference, YMMV, and frankly I don't care if it does.

And profit sharing is off the table as far as I am concerned. And it is 12% DOS. After that I vote for a CPI indexed pay increase + a small raise each year

Oh... and fire away. This should be really good......

I think we should have the option... pre month.. of being able to change to an airport layover if we so choose. I don't necessarily want to go downtown ATL (for example) when I have an all nighter followed by a 5pm departure. I'm not leaving the hotel anyway, so why do I need to go downtown. Cement is not needed here. Yoga... is.

So actually in a way, I agree with you.

And Auburn still sucks.

Being a former regional new hire I have seen the opposite side of this. I'd rather keep the downtown provision in place and work with the company on special circumstances. OMA was one of my favorite layovers while downtown and my absolute least favorite while not downtown. My guess is Delta has better hotel provisions are better than any of my previous companies but the point is, be careful what you wish for.

The biggest difference I have observed between my old company and Delta is the layovers. Domestically, I've been going to pretty much the same places but the layovers are waaaaay better.

There is one certainty when it comes to hotel preferences, no one will agree what is best. I've heard people claim a particular hotel was their favorite while other people claimed the same hotel was their least favorite.

What you describe is exactly what we have now. The company has been good overall about working with the union hotel committee to make changes and exceptions for hotels. The hotel committee does need documentation to effect changes so they need input.

I agree that the downtown language is well intended, and results in some great layovers. As with almost everything, strict parameters usually backfire from time to time. I think where we're at now with the language is pretty good. I'm just concerned that we may have given up some layovers that cost the company money while not getting anything in return.

It costs money to get Manhattan overnights plus transportation compared to closer in stays. When we changed some of those layovers, we provided the company financial relief from previous contract language that we bargained and essentially paid for previously. IMO most of that money should have been redirected back to us immediately.

In any case, we need the flexibility across the network to help pick the best layover locations per hours on the ground. There is no "one size fits all" hourly parameter that is optimal in all cases.

So we go to the company and tell them pilots don't want 12 to 14 hour layovers downtown in NYC. The company says ok we agree and will fix it. Then we say pay us to fix it!
Reminds me of short call verses long call. Once we were on short call every day. We negotiated a long call system with management and then pilots started saying short call sucks we should be paid extra for it!

Lesson for Sailing, holding your breath and stomping your feet is an effective negotiating strategy.