When A 777A Retires........
09-09-2015 | 08:52 AM
#161
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
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From: Light Chop
You're wrong. Don't believe me. Ask your own reps or Contract Admin about how the Negotiators notes and clarifying letters are a routine part or our contractual enforcement. I showed that you don't know the details of the agreement you helped vote down, and your embarrassed. I get it. It's human nature, and it takes a big man to admit he's wrong, but I know you can do it. 20,000+ posts on here. Impressive. You're bound to be wrong once in a while.
We get it. You went on a tirade, got baited, took the bait which was awesome because all of this was hashed out before the contract vote ended, you fell flat on your face and youre upset about it.
We get it.
Here, a picture to make you feel better...
Meet the TA. It's a really awful read but it's never too late for you to start.
09-09-2015 | 09:08 AM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
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From: Kickin’ Back
I think the MEC and/or negotiators would argue that is was not given away but bargained for as part of a total package.
I never said it was inconsequential. Maybe someone else did. I argue that it was in fact consequential but concentrated on a small number of pilots. I think there are around 200-300 pilots in the training department represented by that council (48?). How would pilots here react if the MEC bargained for a special benefit for those 200-300 pilots and no one else? That is what the IOE trip drop has become. I don't expect others to agree with me.
I never said it was inconsequential. Maybe someone else did. I argue that it was in fact consequential but concentrated on a small number of pilots. I think there are around 200-300 pilots in the training department represented by that council (48?). How would pilots here react if the MEC bargained for a special benefit for those 200-300 pilots and no one else? That is what the IOE trip drop has become. I don't expect others to agree with me.
Edit: when you base your argument on a shaky/false premise, it makes your whole argument suspect.
Denny
Last edited by Denny Crane; 09-09-2015 at 09:43 AM.
09-09-2015 | 09:12 AM
#163
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Light Chop
The bolded statement is where I think you go wrong. IMO it does NOT concentrate on a small number of pilots. It affects the whole category the trips are pulled from. Some pilots will not get paid for the trips, all pilots in that particular category will have their seniority affected. Some of which will be assigned to reserve.
Denny
Okay, I'll do the math.
So in the real world mix, the few 3-day trips will probably be gone early, nearly half the 4-days with weekends off would be gone before bidding started and that leaves FOs south of say 10-20% short changed. And that's if FO #1 didn't bid his/her favorite trip only to have it pulled.
Then it affects 100% of the FOs and it will really hurt in December, November and July. I don't think anyone wants to see 1 trip they bid for removed before the award process begins, much less 8% of the trips they bid on magically removed. And of that 8%, a good portion if not all of them are choice trips such as Christmas off, weekends off, etc.
It goes back to that ALPA saying that if you mess with a pilots pay, they'll get mad at you, mess with their schedule and they'll kill you.
- 81% of the total trips in my category for October are 4-days.
- 27% of the total trips in my category for October are 4-days with weekends off.
- That means of the available 4-day weekends off trips, 51% of them are at risk of being pulled, and 38% of them will be pulled and unavailable to be awarded.
- So instead of 27% of the trips being 4-day trips with weekends off, now you only have 16%.
So in the real world mix, the few 3-day trips will probably be gone early, nearly half the 4-days with weekends off would be gone before bidding started and that leaves FOs south of say 10-20% short changed. And that's if FO #1 didn't bid his/her favorite trip only to have it pulled.
Then it affects 100% of the FOs and it will really hurt in December, November and July. I don't think anyone wants to see 1 trip they bid for removed before the award process begins, much less 8% of the trips they bid on magically removed. And of that 8%, a good portion if not all of them are choice trips such as Christmas off, weekends off, etc.
It goes back to that ALPA saying that if you mess with a pilots pay, they'll get mad at you, mess with their schedule and they'll kill you.
09-09-2015 | 09:28 AM
#164
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Light Chop
The Company will designate rotations that have been awarded to Line Check Pilots that contain the projected OE/TOE block hours fo the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period. Following the award of rotations to First Officers that contain at least 25% of the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in the bid period, the Company may withhold from awarding to First Officers the remainder of such designated rotations.
The Company will designate rotations that have been awarded to Line Check Pilots that contain the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots expected to complete simulator training in category in the bid period. Following the award of rotations to First Officers that contain at least 25% of the projected OE/TOE block hours for the pilots in category expected to complete simulator training in the bid period, the Company may withhold from awarding to First Officers the remainder of such designated rotations.
No changes to C2012.
09-09-2015 | 12:49 PM
#166
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,248
Likes: 705
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
I think using bonuses and early raises are the threat being used to work around 3B4 language. I wonder if there is and understanding not expressed in the language or negotiator notes explaining the intent?
Uh, never mind this stuff is well understood and the company is prevented from working in the margins around contract language.
In for a dime...
3% next April will make the pain less. Or not. Either way I hope they are prepared for the morale response when they try to dishonor 3B4. FAs organizing again and pilots shut out of a contractual raise. Hope marketing can handle the blowback.
Uh, never mind this stuff is well understood and the company is prevented from working in the margins around contract language.
In for a dime...
3% next April will make the pain less. Or not. Either way I hope they are prepared for the morale response when they try to dishonor 3B4. FAs organizing again and pilots shut out of a contractual raise. Hope marketing can handle the blowback.
Last edited by notEnuf; 09-09-2015 at 01:34 PM.
09-09-2015 | 01:15 PM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Your transference is showing.
We get it. You went on a tirade, got baited, took the bait which was awesome because all of this was hashed out before the contract vote ended, you fell flat on your face and youre upset about it.
We get it.
Here, a picture to make you feel better...
Meet the TA. It's a really awful read but it's never too late for you to start.
We get it. You went on a tirade, got baited, took the bait which was awesome because all of this was hashed out before the contract vote ended, you fell flat on your face and youre upset about it.
We get it.
Here, a picture to make you feel better...
Meet the TA. It's a really awful read but it's never too late for you to start.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
09-09-2015 | 01:20 PM
#168
Racketeer
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,248
Likes: 705
From: N60.4858 W149.9327
There is none so blind as he who will not see and none so deaf as he who will not hear.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
Last edited by notEnuf; 09-09-2015 at 01:32 PM.
09-09-2015 | 01:25 PM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,685
Likes: 0
From: "Prof" button manipulator
There is none so blind as he who will not see and none so deaf as he who will not hear.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
Please explain the "misinformation" a majority of the Delta pilot group voted under? Where did that misinformation, or lack of information, come from and how could the pilot group be so uninformed? (Please don't insult our intelligence by deflecting the reality of the situation. If so, it's highly likely I was married to you at one time!!
)Hint: D-ALPA could have improved their communications throughout the process instead of making it look like they were in a rush to "SELL" this polished turd.(period)
09-09-2015 | 01:46 PM
#170
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
There is none so blind as he who will not see and none so deaf as he who will not hear.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
You would have been treated the same under the current system as you would have been under the rejected agreement--except you would have been making 8% more under the rejected agreement. Try to justify your misunderstanding all you like, but you didn't understand this aspect of the agreement. It's ok. You are not alone.
Every FO in every category would get nailed by having trips pulled from pbs after they've bid on them. Period.
If you're in that desperate of a need for a small raise, while probably making $200k per year, go see a financial planner or something and learn to have margin, but leave the FOs schedules alone.
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