Do not vote Joe Thomas for C44
10-13-2015, 10:31 AM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: Power top
Posts: 2,959
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
Whatever the idea, you can't just say "no" because of what mgmt "might" do down the road. You might as well never invest in stocks because they "might" go down in the future.
That does not mean we wouldn't need to be eternally vigilant, as we always should be. "Trust but Verify" comes to mind.
That does not mean we wouldn't need to be eternally vigilant, as we always should be. "Trust but Verify" comes to mind.
10-13-2015, 11:30 AM
#132
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
Whatever the idea, you can't just say "no" because of what mgmt "might" do down the road.
And anyway, we've tried saying "yes" because of what management "might do down the road" (C12) thinking they would reward us now.
They didn't.
10-13-2015, 11:36 AM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by Purple Drank
If that's the case, why do we waste money on a strategic planning committee?
And anyway, we've tried saying "yes" because of what management "might do down the road" (C12) thinking they would reward us now.
They didn't.
And anyway, we've tried saying "yes" because of what management "might do down the road" (C12) thinking they would reward us now.
They didn't.
10-13-2015, 11:41 AM
#134
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
Whatever the idea, you can't just say "no" because of what mgmt "might" do down the road. You might as well never invest in stocks because they "might" go down in the future.
That does not mean we wouldn't need to be eternally vigilant, as we always should be. "Trust but Verify" comes to mind.
That does not mean we wouldn't need to be eternally vigilant, as we always should be. "Trust but Verify" comes to mind.
I assume you are talking about management more than DALPA, but it is a shame that we probably have to verify what DALPA say too.
As far as the "Trust' portion of "Trust but verify" I would say DALPA has to once again earn the trust of the Pilot group because a lot of Pilots no longer trust DALPA.
Yes we must also be vigilant. Vigilance means when DALPA says IOE trip drops affect 2% of the FOs we say:
"Great, thanks for telling us how it would have affected us in June 2015. Now tell us how it will affect us in June 2016, 2018, 2022?
And what are the 2nd and 3rd order effects of the IOE trips drops, vice just the first order affects.
Vigilance means when DALPA say we are getting a 21% pay raise we say BS it is a 15% raise with a 6% PS trade.
Scoop
10-13-2015, 11:53 AM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by Scoop
I assume you are talking about management more than DALPA, but it is a shame that we probably have to verify what DALPA say too.
As far as the "Trust' portion of "Trust but verify" I would say DALPA has to once again earn the trust of the Pilot group because a lot of Pilots no longer trust DALPA.
Yes we must also be vigilant. Vigilance means when DALPA says IOE trip drops affect 2% of the FOs we say:
"Great, thanks for telling us how it would have affected us in June 2015. Now tell us how it will affect us in June 2016, 2018, 2022?
And what are the 2nd and 3rd order effects of the IOE trips drops, vice just the first order affects.
Vigilance means when DALPA say we are getting a 21% pay raise we say BS it is a 15% raise with a 6% PS trade.
Scoop
As far as the "Trust' portion of "Trust but verify" I would say DALPA has to once again earn the trust of the Pilot group because a lot of Pilots no longer trust DALPA.
Yes we must also be vigilant. Vigilance means when DALPA says IOE trip drops affect 2% of the FOs we say:
"Great, thanks for telling us how it would have affected us in June 2015. Now tell us how it will affect us in June 2016, 2018, 2022?
And what are the 2nd and 3rd order effects of the IOE trips drops, vice just the first order affects.
Vigilance means when DALPA say we are getting a 21% pay raise we say BS it is a 15% raise with a 6% PS trade.
Scoop
10-15-2015, 12:16 PM
#136
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Joined APC: May 2015
Position: 717a
Posts: 638
Originally Posted by duece12345
Seriously, this guy has to remind everyone how he was in command in the USAF in every letter.
Why does he think that is a qualifying attribute? That he can take orders from his superiors without question?
Not a quality I want fighting for my contract.
10-15-2015, 02:24 PM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Widget Jet
Posts: 765
Our Union yes men have become intertwined with management and feels it is more important to please the executives then represent their own dues paying members. They have been brainwashed by Moak to believe they are smarter than the average line pilot and are in a position to not only save us "rocket surgeons" from ourselves but to also please their "daddy" over on Mahogoney row. They lack integrity from the start so the hand picked ones have no problem selling out the group for their own agendas or to fulfill their giant egos.
I don't want some union guy colluding w/ management against the very member he's been elected to protect and represent.
Tail
10-21-2015, 06:09 AM
#139
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 7ERB
Posts: 2,039
Originally Posted by Klondike Bear
Give it a rest Joe, the contract did not fail because of the pay rates.
TEN
Ps. Dont worry about Joe. He is the new DALPA puppet.
10-22-2015, 07:03 PM
#140
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 1
Re Sick leave and Joe T.
Regarding Sick Leave:
Joe Thomas C44 candidate for CAP. Rep. recently wrote us a campaign letter with his comments regarding sick leave. In his letter he cites management’s numbers showing a clear increase in sick leave use from 2012 to 2014 of almost 40 percent against a pilot group size growth of only 2 percent. He sides with management that this is a growing issue. He also points the finger at his fellow pilots saying that this is a symptom of a lack of integrity fostering within the pilot group that leads to abuse of sick leave and that if left unchecked, it will undermine morale leading to a more toxic work environment for the rest of us. He goes on to say that putting checks in place is necessary thus he sides with management for more controls.
If you take the numbers the company puts out, then this would seem to be true. Only its not…it’s utter bull****. Both his line and the company line on this are deliberate misrepresentations of what is really going on.
Are there sick leave abusers within our ranks? Yes, no question. Have been and always will be. It’s just a fact of human nature that a small group of players will always game the system within any group of humans. Pilots are no different.
However, are we all so lame as to let the small group of abusers lead the rest of us into abusing the system as well? Are enough of us so lame as cause an increase in sick leave use through abuse of 40 percent in just two years?
OR…is there another, simpler, more commonsense answer to the trend which involves neither abuse nor rebellious malcontent among the pilot group?
I submit the real reason for the last two-year rise in sick leave use is quite simple, honest and legitimate – which is that we are an aging pilot group being over-worked and this trend will continue. It doesn’t take a rocket-surgeon to realize that as we age we are subject to far more ailments than when we were younger and that recovery times are longer and so on.
To support my point, let’s look at pilot retirements. Since 2010 pilot retirement numbers have been fairly low, steady at less than 200 per year. However, as of 2015 that trend will end and retirements are going to spike significantly.
2016 = 211 retirements
2017 = 271
2018 = 386
2019 = 477
2020 = 581
2021 = 776
2022 = 833
2023 = 793
2024 = 792
2025 = 712
2026 = 606
2027 = 515
2028 = 508
2029 = 510
2030 = 539 trending slightly downwards after.
2035 = back down to 251 and stabilizing.
As of the end of 2014 Delta air lines listed 10,750 pilots on its payroll. Of which, based on the retirement numbers above, 5,832 of us are aged 55 and older, with 1,926 being aged 60 or older.
At the end of 2011 only 3,535 of us were 55 and older. Between 2011 and 2012 that number grew to 5,832, which is a 65 percent growth in the number of pilots aged 55 or more. Is it not simply logical that an ever-aging population of pilots, pushed to the extremes by our work rules would have more sick leave usage?
Of course it is. I cry bull**** on the whole company argument that we need policing and that malcontent sick abusers are leading the rest of us astray. I also say Joe Thomas is full of bull himself, for not even trying to see if any other correlation might be in play to account for the rise in sick leave use.
And the numbers only get worse for our aging pilot group as over the next five years the numbers of us that are 55 and over will swell by another 752 (after deleting those retiring in the same time frame) by 2020 to a total of 6,584 pilots out of maybe 11,500 by then, with a greater proportion actually over 60.
We are NOT cheaters nor abusers. We are hard working aging pilots. Give us a break, don’t ask us to justify our sick calls. We KNOW when we shouldn’t be flying and the FAA says don’t fly sick.
To close – just realize that the company line, the chief pilot’s line and Joe Thomas’s line that sick leave abuse is on the rise and needs to be controlled is a TOTAL lie. Sick leave ABUSE is not on the rise…sick leave use is up, commiserate with a rise in our aging pilot group.
Fight the lies. Unite for a solid TA, support restoration! (Don’t vote for Joe T.)
Cheers,
J.D.
Joe Thomas C44 candidate for CAP. Rep. recently wrote us a campaign letter with his comments regarding sick leave. In his letter he cites management’s numbers showing a clear increase in sick leave use from 2012 to 2014 of almost 40 percent against a pilot group size growth of only 2 percent. He sides with management that this is a growing issue. He also points the finger at his fellow pilots saying that this is a symptom of a lack of integrity fostering within the pilot group that leads to abuse of sick leave and that if left unchecked, it will undermine morale leading to a more toxic work environment for the rest of us. He goes on to say that putting checks in place is necessary thus he sides with management for more controls.
If you take the numbers the company puts out, then this would seem to be true. Only its not…it’s utter bull****. Both his line and the company line on this are deliberate misrepresentations of what is really going on.
Are there sick leave abusers within our ranks? Yes, no question. Have been and always will be. It’s just a fact of human nature that a small group of players will always game the system within any group of humans. Pilots are no different.
However, are we all so lame as to let the small group of abusers lead the rest of us into abusing the system as well? Are enough of us so lame as cause an increase in sick leave use through abuse of 40 percent in just two years?
OR…is there another, simpler, more commonsense answer to the trend which involves neither abuse nor rebellious malcontent among the pilot group?
I submit the real reason for the last two-year rise in sick leave use is quite simple, honest and legitimate – which is that we are an aging pilot group being over-worked and this trend will continue. It doesn’t take a rocket-surgeon to realize that as we age we are subject to far more ailments than when we were younger and that recovery times are longer and so on.
To support my point, let’s look at pilot retirements. Since 2010 pilot retirement numbers have been fairly low, steady at less than 200 per year. However, as of 2015 that trend will end and retirements are going to spike significantly.
2016 = 211 retirements
2017 = 271
2018 = 386
2019 = 477
2020 = 581
2021 = 776
2022 = 833
2023 = 793
2024 = 792
2025 = 712
2026 = 606
2027 = 515
2028 = 508
2029 = 510
2030 = 539 trending slightly downwards after.
2035 = back down to 251 and stabilizing.
As of the end of 2014 Delta air lines listed 10,750 pilots on its payroll. Of which, based on the retirement numbers above, 5,832 of us are aged 55 and older, with 1,926 being aged 60 or older.
At the end of 2011 only 3,535 of us were 55 and older. Between 2011 and 2012 that number grew to 5,832, which is a 65 percent growth in the number of pilots aged 55 or more. Is it not simply logical that an ever-aging population of pilots, pushed to the extremes by our work rules would have more sick leave usage?
Of course it is. I cry bull**** on the whole company argument that we need policing and that malcontent sick abusers are leading the rest of us astray. I also say Joe Thomas is full of bull himself, for not even trying to see if any other correlation might be in play to account for the rise in sick leave use.
And the numbers only get worse for our aging pilot group as over the next five years the numbers of us that are 55 and over will swell by another 752 (after deleting those retiring in the same time frame) by 2020 to a total of 6,584 pilots out of maybe 11,500 by then, with a greater proportion actually over 60.
We are NOT cheaters nor abusers. We are hard working aging pilots. Give us a break, don’t ask us to justify our sick calls. We KNOW when we shouldn’t be flying and the FAA says don’t fly sick.
To close – just realize that the company line, the chief pilot’s line and Joe Thomas’s line that sick leave abuse is on the rise and needs to be controlled is a TOTAL lie. Sick leave ABUSE is not on the rise…sick leave use is up, commiserate with a rise in our aging pilot group.
Fight the lies. Unite for a solid TA, support restoration! (Don’t vote for Joe T.)
Cheers,
J.D.
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