3B4 coal in your stocking
12-08-2015 | 11:36 AM
#211
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From: DAL 330
This could well be true, but the point is it might be worth concentrating our negotiating capital towards other things that increase value besides pay rates.
Let's just assume that Delta is only willing to concede the stated $1.1 billion dollars of value over three years they offered us in TA2015. Most of that $1.1 billion dollar pie was made up of pay rate increases. Wouldn't it make sense to make that a much smaller piece of the pie and carve out larger slices of pie for retirement, medical costs, vacation and other areas that would put money in our pockets? I'm not arguing that the pie shouldn't have been bigger, to the tune of say $3 billion dollars over three years, but that's besides the point.
It might take 5 years to catch up to American or United, but it will eventually happen. In the mean time we've increased the value of our contact in other areas that we would have neglected in order to increase pay rates. Furthermore, giving up profit sharing for pay rates is pointless. With patience we can have both and use negotiating capital for other improvements.
Let's just assume that Delta is only willing to concede the stated $1.1 billion dollars of value over three years they offered us in TA2015. Most of that $1.1 billion dollar pie was made up of pay rate increases. Wouldn't it make sense to make that a much smaller piece of the pie and carve out larger slices of pie for retirement, medical costs, vacation and other areas that would put money in our pockets? I'm not arguing that the pie shouldn't have been bigger, to the tune of say $3 billion dollars over three years, but that's besides the point.
It might take 5 years to catch up to American or United, but it will eventually happen. In the mean time we've increased the value of our contact in other areas that we would have neglected in order to increase pay rates. Furthermore, giving up profit sharing for pay rates is pointless. With patience we can have both and use negotiating capital for other improvements.
I like your thought process a lot - looking at the big picture long term. We just better make sure we protect the 3B4 from any changes because if PS is allowed to be calculated prior to 3B4 its game over for 3B4.
Additionally with a three year deal the company may try to avoid the whole issue with a year or two of bonus payments in lieu of a raise for the non contracts.
The whole issue is very complicated and does give the company a few options. Maybe we should consider professional negotiators or at least hope the new NC will be a little more skeptical toward the company.
I still cannot believe we agreed to sunset the 3B5 this month.
Scoop
12-08-2015 | 12:00 PM
#212
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Just the rotor bubba take on a portion of our contract that doesn't have as much smack as many believe.
If we allow PS to be part of the new TA (WRT to 3B4) you will need a sport coat pilot using the black shoals valuation model to garner full understanding.
12-08-2015 | 01:11 PM
#213
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From: A330 First Officer
Air Cavalry....Because Night Stalkers need heroes too
12-10-2015 | 03:45 PM
#214
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From: N60.4858 W149.9327
Profit sharing for 2016 should be even better. 3B4 brings up pay rates without giving up profit sharing. 3B4 and 3I keep them separate and independent.
Airline profits seen increasing in 2016 - American Airlines Group (NASDAQ:AAL) | Seeking Alpha
Airline profits seen increasing in 2016 - American Airlines Group (NASDAQ:AAL) | Seeking Alpha
12-10-2015 | 04:34 PM
#215
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You are assuming, of course, we get a 3.B.4 pay raise in 2016. I'm not so sure we will unless you believe the company is going to increase pay rates for the non-contract employees after this year's sizeable increase.
12-10-2015 | 04:50 PM
#216
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Cash your profit sharing checks and enjoy, there will never be an 18% year for our fellow employees again.
This is about more than one contract cycle. Our pay will always seek industry average while we capture industry leading profit sharing.
12-11-2015 | 04:58 AM
#217
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Until an agreement is reached the clauses stay independent, and they should remain so for future negotiations. There is value in removing the punitive effect of the RLA. We will always be getting raises timed with the other employees when we are below the industry average, without concessions and with full profit sharing. Keep it that way.
Cash your profit sharing checks and enjoy, there will never be an 18% year for our fellow employees again.
This is about more than one contract cycle. Our pay will always seek industry average while we capture industry leading profit sharing.
Cash your profit sharing checks and enjoy, there will never be an 18% year for our fellow employees again.
This is about more than one contract cycle. Our pay will always seek industry average while we capture industry leading profit sharing.
The first hurdle is getting 3.B.4 to trigger a review which requires an internal pay raise to at least 30% of the U.S. based workforce. It seems the company could bypass that during negotiations by paying non-cons a bonus seeing as 3.B.5 sunsets at the end of this month.
Next, what is the 2nd order effect of Delta, United and American all having "me too" clauses? (Rumored that UAL will have one if this AIP is approved and I would like to think AA will get one on their next agreement). Do we get to parity where there is no raise to be had and therefore the "punitive effect" of the RLA has returned? I think the better solution is to keep 3.B.4 but also have a post-amendable date COLA adjustment based on an independent index (i.e., CPI) so that we can maintain some purchasing power rather than stagnating during Section 6 negotiations.
12-11-2015 | 05:01 AM
#218
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Until an agreement is reached the clauses stay independent, and they should remain so for future negotiations. There is value in removing the punitive effect of the RLA. We will always be getting raises timed with the other employees when we are below the industry average, without concessions and with full profit sharing. Keep it that way.
Cash your profit sharing checks and enjoy, there will never be an 18% year for our fellow employees again.
This is about more than one contract cycle. Our pay will always seek industry average while we capture industry leading profit sharing.
Cash your profit sharing checks and enjoy, there will never be an 18% year for our fellow employees again.
This is about more than one contract cycle. Our pay will always seek industry average while we capture industry leading profit sharing.
If the company decides to give the non contracts a "bonus" v. a pay raise, we get squat.
I don't think they will give bonuses forever, but they could do it for a couple of years.
IOW, I would not put much faith in 3B4, unless you think this mess will take 3-4 years to sort out.
12-11-2015 | 12:02 PM
#219
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From: N60.4858 W149.9327
No matter how long this takes, commingling PS (3I) with rates kills 3B4. As they exist now 3B4 specifically deals with rates, driving them to industry average when non-cons get raises. 3B4 could be strengthened by making it an independent annual review either after the amendable date or every year.
Pipe dream, I know. Why should we expect to get industry average pay rates? That's just ridiculous.
PS (3I) is our return on investment during bankruptcy and a Delta specific bankruptcy related benefit. Don't touch it.
Pipe dream, I know. Why should we expect to get industry average pay rates? That's just ridiculous.
PS (3I) is our return on investment during bankruptcy and a Delta specific bankruptcy related benefit. Don't touch it.
12-11-2015 | 12:39 PM
#220
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No matter how long this takes, commingling PS (3I) with rates kills 3B4. As they exist now 3B4 specifically deals with rates, driving them to industry average when non-cons get raises. 3B4 could be strengthened by making it an independent annual review either after the amendable date or every year.
Pipe dream, I know. Why should we expect to get industry average pay rates? That's just ridiculous.
PS (3I) is our return on investment during bankruptcy and a Delta specific bankruptcy related benefit. Don't touch it.
Pipe dream, I know. Why should we expect to get industry average pay rates? That's just ridiculous.
PS (3I) is our return on investment during bankruptcy and a Delta specific bankruptcy related benefit. Don't touch it.
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