Is Delta a Dead end Career?
04-29-2016 | 06:22 AM
#61
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,252
Likes: 95
From: DAL 330
The Original Poster is on to something. I don't think his worry over lack of WB aircraft is the primary threat to DAL becoming a dead-end job. Yes it would be great to have more WB but still plenty of variety with the most varied/inefficient/versatile/agile/costly/numerous (pick your favorite) fleet around.
The real long term threat to a DAL career is the same exact threat that every US airline will face, - cabotage, shell game schemes (think NAI), the ME three etc.
Just look at what happened t the merchant marine industry and you will see the real threat to US airline careers.
Scoop
The real long term threat to a DAL career is the same exact threat that every US airline will face, - cabotage, shell game schemes (think NAI), the ME three etc.
Just look at what happened t the merchant marine industry and you will see the real threat to US airline careers.
Scoop
04-29-2016 | 07:14 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
From: non acceptus excretus
The Original Poster is on to something. I don't think his worry over lack of WB aircraft is the primary threat to DAL becoming a dead-end job. Yes it would be great to have more WB but still plenty of variety with the most varied/inefficient/versatile/agile/costly/numerous (pick your favorite) fleet around.
The real long term threat to a DAL career is the same exact threat that every US airline will face, - cabotage, shell game schemes (think NAI), the ME three etc.
Just look at what happened t the merchant marine industry and you will see the real threat to US airline careers.
Scoop
The real long term threat to a DAL career is the same exact threat that every US airline will face, - cabotage, shell game schemes (think NAI), the ME three etc.
Just look at what happened t the merchant marine industry and you will see the real threat to US airline careers.
Scoop
04-29-2016 | 07:45 AM
#63
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
It's the reason behind why there is a lack of widebody aircraft...That reason is that via codesharing Delta management is already using the merchant marine model against us. The JV with China Eastern is a great example out of many...Look at the main deck cargo, 14 NWA freighters worth of main deck Cargo go through Anchorage every day filled with NWA/Delta Cargo...The list goes on and on. The next step in flag of convenience granted is NAI, but the model has already hit us hard.
Codesharing is paying someone else to carry your passengers. GOL is an example of a codeshare which benefits us as we carry something in the neighborhood of 10 times as many of their passengers on Delta jets than they carry of ours.
Economically a Joint Venture is a merger. The critical difference is commingling the money in a secret commercial agreement and then hiding the result somewhere in consolidated results.
You are correct that a JV has a very high risk of labor arbitrage. Northwest invented this sort of arrangement in 1993 with KLM and was the first to experience a withdrawal from secondary markets and focus on larger widebodies to serve it's partner's hub cities.
Delta had (and has) taken a different approach and had (has) a different, small gauged, widebody fleet to serve it's smaller destinations.
The key to enjoying industry leading pay and working conditions while avoiding Delta's use of partners' certificates to reduce pilot costs is effective scope language.
As pilots, we need to push for changes which will optimize the Delta-ALPA's enforcement of scope.
04-29-2016 | 07:57 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
From: non acceptus excretus
Your conclusion is not totally wrong, but your presentation could be improved. Please do not confuse codesharing and Joint Ventures.
Codesharing is paying someone else to carry your passengers. GOL is an example of a codeshare which benefits us as we carry something in the neighborhood of 10 times as many of their passengers on Delta jets than they carry of ours.
Economically a Joint Venture is a merger. The critical difference is commingling the money in a secret commercial agreement and then hiding the result somewhere in consolidated results.
You are correct that a JV has a very high risk of labor arbitrage. Northwest invented this sort of arrangement in 1993 with KLM and was the first to experience a withdrawal from secondary markets and focus on larger widebodies to serve it's partner's hub cities.
Delta had (and has) taken a different approach and had (has) a different, small gauged, widebody fleet to serve it's smaller destinations.
The key to enjoying industry leading pay and working conditions while avoiding Delta's use of partners' certificates to reduce pilot costs is effective scope language.
As pilots, we need to push for changes which will optimize the Delta-ALPA's enforcement of scope.
Codesharing is paying someone else to carry your passengers. GOL is an example of a codeshare which benefits us as we carry something in the neighborhood of 10 times as many of their passengers on Delta jets than they carry of ours.
Economically a Joint Venture is a merger. The critical difference is commingling the money in a secret commercial agreement and then hiding the result somewhere in consolidated results.
You are correct that a JV has a very high risk of labor arbitrage. Northwest invented this sort of arrangement in 1993 with KLM and was the first to experience a withdrawal from secondary markets and focus on larger widebodies to serve it's partner's hub cities.
Delta had (and has) taken a different approach and had (has) a different, small gauged, widebody fleet to serve it's smaller destinations.
The key to enjoying industry leading pay and working conditions while avoiding Delta's use of partners' certificates to reduce pilot costs is effective scope language.
As pilots, we need to push for changes which will optimize the Delta-ALPA's enforcement of scope.
04-29-2016 | 08:07 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Your conclusion is not totally wrong, but your presentation could be improved. Please do not confuse codesharing and Joint Ventures.
Codesharing is paying someone else to carry your passengers. GOL is an example of a codeshare which benefits us as we carry something in the neighborhood of 10 times as many of their passengers on Delta jets than they carry of ours.
Economically a Joint Venture is a merger. The critical difference is commingling the money in a secret commercial agreement and then hiding the result somewhere in consolidated results.
You are correct that a JV has a very high risk of labor arbitrage. Northwest invented this sort of arrangement in 1993 with KLM and was the first to experience a withdrawal from secondary markets and focus on larger widebodies to serve it's partner's hub cities.
Delta had (and has) taken a different approach and had (has) a different, small gauged, widebody fleet to serve it's smaller destinations.
The key to enjoying industry leading pay and working conditions while avoiding Delta's use of partners' certificates to reduce pilot costs is effective scope language.
As pilots, we need to push for changes which will optimize the Delta-ALPA's enforcement of scope.
Codesharing is paying someone else to carry your passengers. GOL is an example of a codeshare which benefits us as we carry something in the neighborhood of 10 times as many of their passengers on Delta jets than they carry of ours.
Economically a Joint Venture is a merger. The critical difference is commingling the money in a secret commercial agreement and then hiding the result somewhere in consolidated results.
You are correct that a JV has a very high risk of labor arbitrage. Northwest invented this sort of arrangement in 1993 with KLM and was the first to experience a withdrawal from secondary markets and focus on larger widebodies to serve it's partner's hub cities.
Delta had (and has) taken a different approach and had (has) a different, small gauged, widebody fleet to serve it's smaller destinations.
The key to enjoying industry leading pay and working conditions while avoiding Delta's use of partners' certificates to reduce pilot costs is effective scope language.
As pilots, we need to push for changes which will optimize the Delta-ALPA's enforcement of scope.
04-29-2016 | 08:35 AM
#67
Banned
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Great!!! We've both got the same T-shirt, only mine's just a little older and ragged than yours.
04-29-2016 | 08:44 AM
#68
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
That is a good treatise and summation Buck. Your last statement is the lynch pin though. How do you accomplish that? Liquidated damages? A penalty for non-compliance. Good luck getting those kinds of things into the contract. I agree with what you are saying, but I would think they would be extremely difficult to pull off.
In successive administrations (including this one) our Scope Compliance and Analysis Chairman is not permitted to interface with network management. In fact, the Scope Compliance and Analysis Chairman is not allowed "to advocate for scope" compliance. This has been reiterated as "we do not see the SC&A Chair as an advocacy position."
The improvement I suggest (and which is on the agenda for the May 11th C44 LEC meeting) is that we change the policy manual to include participation in the network meetings in the Scope Compliance & Analysis Chairman's responsibilities, including providing feedback to the company on their scope compliance with the goal of proactively seeking (advocating even) for scope compliance.
Every other functional committee interfaces with their equivalent at the company, working together on scheduling, safety and a host of other tasks which make Delta a better airline. We can improve scope compliance by letting our Scope Compliance and Analysis Chair do their job.
We need support for this resolution. Some feel this is somehow diminishes the power of the MEC Chairman. But in reality the MEC Chairman usually delegates these ministrative tasks. The MEC Chairman still selects (and fires) the Scope Chairman. The Chairman's power to determine who is in the room is not diminished in any way.
My reasoning for cementing this change in the policy manual is that we have to think of the future. John Malone's administration has already adopted some of the suggested improvements. For this work to last it needs to be written policy.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-29-2016 at 09:10 AM.
04-29-2016 | 09:13 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,233
Likes: 681
From: ir.delta.com
Glad you asked. Network and revenue management allocate flying. The company's plan for the allocation of flying does not include consideration of scope compliance. Worse, because we have quite long measurement periods followed by cure periods; harm to pilots can accumulate during an extended period of noncompliance before an actual "violation" occurs.
In successive administrations (including this one) our Scope Compliance and Analysis Chairman is not permitted to interface with network management. Rather, only a very select group of senior leaders are permitted to participate in network meetings based mostly on political considerations. In fact, the Scope Compliance and Analysis Chairman is not allowed "to advocate for scope" compliance. This has been reiterated as "we do not see the SC&A Chair as an advocacy position."
The improvement I suggest (and which is on the agenda for the May 11th C44 LEC meeting) is that we change the policy manual to include participation in the network meetings in the Scope Compliance & Analysis Chairman's responsibilities, including providing feedback to the company on their scope compliance with the goal of proactively seeking (advocating even) for scope compliance.
Every other functional committee interfaces with their equivalent at the company, working together on scheduling, safety and a host of other tasks which make Delta a better airline. We can improve scope compliance by letting our Scope Compliance and Analysis Chair do their job.
We need support for this resolution. Some feel this is somehow diminishes the power of the MEC Chairman. But in reality the MEC Chairman usually delegates these ministrative tasks. The MEC Chairman still selects (and fires) the Scope Chairman. The Chairman's power to determine who is in the room is not diminished in any way.
My reasoning for cementing this change in the policy manual is that we have to think of the future. John Malone's administration has already adopted some of the suggested improvements, for this work to last it needs to be written policy.
In successive administrations (including this one) our Scope Compliance and Analysis Chairman is not permitted to interface with network management. Rather, only a very select group of senior leaders are permitted to participate in network meetings based mostly on political considerations. In fact, the Scope Compliance and Analysis Chairman is not allowed "to advocate for scope" compliance. This has been reiterated as "we do not see the SC&A Chair as an advocacy position."
The improvement I suggest (and which is on the agenda for the May 11th C44 LEC meeting) is that we change the policy manual to include participation in the network meetings in the Scope Compliance & Analysis Chairman's responsibilities, including providing feedback to the company on their scope compliance with the goal of proactively seeking (advocating even) for scope compliance.
Every other functional committee interfaces with their equivalent at the company, working together on scheduling, safety and a host of other tasks which make Delta a better airline. We can improve scope compliance by letting our Scope Compliance and Analysis Chair do their job.
We need support for this resolution. Some feel this is somehow diminishes the power of the MEC Chairman. But in reality the MEC Chairman usually delegates these ministrative tasks. The MEC Chairman still selects (and fires) the Scope Chairman. The Chairman's power to determine who is in the room is not diminished in any way.
My reasoning for cementing this change in the policy manual is that we have to think of the future. John Malone's administration has already adopted some of the suggested improvements, for this work to last it needs to be written policy.
What most people don't realize is that revenue management runs a whole lot more than just Delta's revenue and schedule.
Here's an excerpt from GOL's 20-F filing. That's the same as a 10-K from a U.S. company.
Delta Investment and Commercial Agreements
On December 7, 2011 our controlling shareholder and Delta entered into an investment agreement providing for the sale of 8,300,455 preferred shares in the form of ADSs owned by our controlling shareholder to Delta at a price per share equivalent to R$22.00, or the Delta Investment. Our controlling shareholder used the entire net proceeds from the sale of preferred shares to Delta to subscribe for new common and preferred shares in a rights offering issued by us at the same price per share paid by Delta.
Our controlling shareholder further agreed to elect a Delta representative to our board of directors as long as Delta holds at least 50% of the ADSs acquired in the investment, among other conditions.
In the context of the Delta Investment, we entered into a long-term commercial agreement with Delta that included exclusivity provisions designed to strengthen the operational cooperation and synergies between the two companies, including:
·an increase in the scope of the codeshare agreement (flight sharing). We have our own code in all Delta flights between Brazil and the United States. In addition, Delta continues to increase the use of codeshare in our flights in Brazil, South America, the United States and the Caribbean. This increases the number of flight options for passengers of both airlines, expanding our geographical reach;
·optimization of flight connections and cargo and passenger transport services through the operations working group among the nearly 400 destinations in over 62 countries served by Gol and Delta;
·the increase in passenger comfort by aligning services and benefits for members of both the Smiles and SkyMiles mileage programs, for example, making it possible to earn and redeem miles and get free access to GOL+Conforto seats, among other advantages;
·joint commercial and promotional activities, encouraging both airlines’ sales forces to cooperate in Brazil, the United States and other countries, including joint sponsorship of events such as Rock in Rio; and
·the exploration of synergies in passenger services, maintenance, VIP lounges and logistical support, including Delta task force in revenue management and maintenance, the use of Smiles lounge by Delta Elite passengers and the use of the SkyClub by Smiles Diamond passengers.
04-29-2016 | 04:15 PM
#70
On Reserve
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
From: 777A
Does all the talk of losing wide body seats indicate we may need to look at a new compensation model? It has been brought up before but maybe now is a good time to look again at seniority based pay. Now only 10-15 percent of the list will make it to the top. With seniority based pay it wouldn't matter what airplanes the company bought. It would take some complicated formulas to get started but allow for a more stable work force in the end. Just throwing it out there.
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