Scope and Cost Neutral
09-08-2016 | 08:01 AM
#101
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,324
Likes: 53
It's comical that the Kool-Aide crowd likes to claim C2012 was responsible for the B717s. Fact: C2012 had ZERO relevance on the acquisition of the B717. This management team wasn't going to pass up the steal of a lifetime in this airframe. C2012 had nothing to do with it. Ed said they were eyeing the 717 the day SWA showed interest in Airtran.
What C2012 did was:
- breath life in an ailing regional model. The CRJ200s are dying. The 76 seaters provided an economic replacement keeping the regional industry a viable model.
- change our summer months from 31 days to 30 days allowing the company to reduce headcount (3% is a reasonable estimate) by requiring approximately 3% less pilots in the summer months. Hiring would have been FAR greater absent this concession.
What C2012 did was:
- breath life in an ailing regional model. The CRJ200s are dying. The 76 seaters provided an economic replacement keeping the regional industry a viable model.
- change our summer months from 31 days to 30 days allowing the company to reduce headcount (3% is a reasonable estimate) by requiring approximately 3% less pilots in the summer months. Hiring would have been FAR greater absent this concession.
09-08-2016 | 08:14 AM
#102
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Schwanker,
I agreed with you and voted against C2012. But you had to look beyond just the 717 to the block hour ratio which was increased as a result of an event-driven process.
Block hours = Pilot Jobs
So if we gain 4 to 1 as RJ flying decreases it is a trade worth considering objectively. To get to no DCI we have to cross through less DCI.
While scope is a religious item (I like the term moral item) for me, what will probably effect you and I more is what is coming with Aeromexico. It would be pleasing if we could move forward and start getting that JV restricted in such a way that we attain at least our fair share of that growth.
I agreed with you and voted against C2012. But you had to look beyond just the 717 to the block hour ratio which was increased as a result of an event-driven process.
Block hours = Pilot Jobs
So if we gain 4 to 1 as RJ flying decreases it is a trade worth considering objectively. To get to no DCI we have to cross through less DCI.
While scope is a religious item (I like the term moral item) for me, what will probably effect you and I more is what is coming with Aeromexico. It would be pleasing if we could move forward and start getting that JV restricted in such a way that we attain at least our fair share of that growth.
09-08-2016 | 08:25 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,152
Likes: 215
It's comical that the Kool-Aide crowd likes to claim C2012 was responsible for the B717s. Fact: C2012 had ZERO relevance on the acquisition of the B717. This management team wasn't going to pass up the steal of a lifetime in this airframe. C2012 had nothing to do with it. Ed said they were eyeing the 717 the day SWA showed interest in Airtran.
What C2012 did was:
- breath life in an ailing regional model. The CRJ200s are dying. The 76 seaters provided an economic replacement keeping the regional industry a viable model.
- change our summer months from 31 days to 30 days allowing the company to reduce headcount (3% is a reasonable estimate) by requiring approximately 3% less pilots in the summer months. Hiring would have been FAR greater absent this concession.
What C2012 did was:
- breath life in an ailing regional model. The CRJ200s are dying. The 76 seaters provided an economic replacement keeping the regional industry a viable model.
- change our summer months from 31 days to 30 days allowing the company to reduce headcount (3% is a reasonable estimate) by requiring approximately 3% less pilots in the summer months. Hiring would have been FAR greater absent this concession.
Meanwhile at Delta...24% of pilot group 2014+ DOH, 15 Month Captain upgrade.
Block Hours=Pilot Jobs
C2012 unquestionably shifted a significant amount of BHs from Regional to Mainline despite increased 76 seaters. It's simple arithmetic. I expect C2016 to do the same. Now if we can get the 330s and 765 to banded to 777 pay...
#ScopeChoke
09-08-2016 | 08:33 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Got the numbers from a person on the DALPA admin. And you thought I made it up.
Millions to be saved by management not having to do heavy maintainance on the 50 seat jets.
$250 million to $300 million. I err on the high side because management always low balls us.
WRT JV scope brought instantly in compliance and converting to block hours.
It is not only the lost widebody positions, but the waterfall those upgrades would cause.
Getting this right is everything. We must have instant compensation for management being out of compliance.
No waiting years. No grievance.
Rock solid language. We could easily give up a Billion here over the next decade.
The same meaningless language will crush our future. Well not us old farts.
I'm fighting for you young pilots and our profession.
Scope is everything in this deal.
Speak up.
Millions to be saved by management not having to do heavy maintainance on the 50 seat jets.
$250 million to $300 million. I err on the high side because management always low balls us.
WRT JV scope brought instantly in compliance and converting to block hours.
It is not only the lost widebody positions, but the waterfall those upgrades would cause.
Getting this right is everything. We must have instant compensation for management being out of compliance.
No waiting years. No grievance.
Rock solid language. We could easily give up a Billion here over the next decade.
The same meaningless language will crush our future. Well not us old farts.
I'm fighting for you young pilots and our profession.
Scope is everything in this deal.
Speak up.
Once again, more screeching from you and nothing else.
09-08-2016 | 08:35 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
In doesn't matter if it is a E190 or C series. Plan B, C, etc, was always the Delta pilots flying MORE jets when they voted down allowing more 76-seat jets to be outsourced. Plan A is management's goal to outsource more, not less. Thankfully more and more of us see that.
The sooner you get off your high horse that DPA pilots hates Delta the better. DPA is comprised of pilots from all former airlines. In fact the first pilot who told me he was a DPA pilot was former Delta. Yeah, DPA is Delta haters
DPA pilots want restoration for all pilots. They want more restoration than DALPA has stood for. DALPA is on a razor thin edge to deliver on this one.
The sooner you get off your high horse that DPA pilots hates Delta the better. DPA is comprised of pilots from all former airlines. In fact the first pilot who told me he was a DPA pilot was former Delta. Yeah, DPA is Delta haters
DPA pilots want restoration for all pilots. They want more restoration than DALPA has stood for. DALPA is on a razor thin edge to deliver on this one.
09-08-2016 | 08:38 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
Explain why American expanded RJ flying and reduced mainline airing the same time period? Getting rid of the E190.
Meanwhile at Delta...24% of pilot group 2014+ DOH, 15 Month Captain upgrade.
Block Hours=Pilot Jobs
C2012 unquestionably shifted a significant amount of BHs from Regional to Mainline despite increased 76 seaters. It's simple arithmetic. I expect C2016 to do the same. Now if we can get the 330s, 765. and 7ERs banded to 777 pay...
#ScopeChoke
Meanwhile at Delta...24% of pilot group 2014+ DOH, 15 Month Captain upgrade.
Block Hours=Pilot Jobs
C2012 unquestionably shifted a significant amount of BHs from Regional to Mainline despite increased 76 seaters. It's simple arithmetic. I expect C2016 to do the same. Now if we can get the 330s, 765. and 7ERs banded to 777 pay...
#ScopeChoke
09-08-2016 | 08:39 AM
#107
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 9
From: 3fidy
Or did you mean you want a purple Maserati?
09-08-2016 | 08:40 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
Likes: 0
From: A350 Both
09-08-2016 | 08:43 AM
#109
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,324
Likes: 53
Explain why American expanded RJ flying and reduced mainline airing the same time period? Getting rid of the E190.
Meanwhile at Delta...24% of pilot group 2014+ DOH, 15 Month Captain upgrade.
Block Hours=Pilot Jobs
C2012 unquestionably shifted a significant amount of BHs from Regional to Mainline despite increased 76 seaters. It's simple arithmetic. I expect C2016 to do the same. Now if we can get the 330s and 765 to banded to 777 pay...
#ScopeChoke
Meanwhile at Delta...24% of pilot group 2014+ DOH, 15 Month Captain upgrade.
Block Hours=Pilot Jobs
C2012 unquestionably shifted a significant amount of BHs from Regional to Mainline despite increased 76 seaters. It's simple arithmetic. I expect C2016 to do the same. Now if we can get the 330s and 765 to banded to 777 pay...
#ScopeChoke
C2012 put more 76 seat aircraft at the regionals, breathing life into the regional model. The argument could be made absent this scope concession, we may have seen even greater orders at mainline to provide the lift.
Every contract cycle, management incrementally increases their ability to fly more 76 seat aircraft because we are so use to caving. That's all it is, another scope concession. Now they are back at the trough again, whether they need it or not.
Last edited by Schwanker; 09-08-2016 at 08:57 AM.
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