Recall?
10-22-2016 | 04:08 PM
#61
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From: Kickin’ Back
The great thing about this is.............we (the union) can stop/call a halt/end this if we don't like it! As a non commuter (was one for quite awhile) I'm all for giving it a shot and seeing how it works out. This could be a huge QOL improvement for all commuters. Yes it's going to cut down on DH and thus require less pilots to be hired but as someone mentioned, with the current hiring and retirements coming up, it won't even be felt.
Denny
10-22-2016 | 05:20 PM
#62
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A "few" commuters? Let me ask you this: Who is going to bid VB/TDY? I'll answer: All most all if not all commuters. Why would a guy living in base bid one? This will be a huge boon to all 767 and smaller commuters. I don't see bigger aircraft being part of a VB.
......
Yes it's going to cut down on DH and thus require less pilots to be hired but as someone mentioned, with the current hiring and retirements coming up, it won't even be felt.
Denny
......
Yes it's going to cut down on DH and thus require less pilots to be hired but as someone mentioned, with the current hiring and retirements coming up, it won't even be felt.
Denny
To your last point, I'm not sure the hiring rate affects one's progression from NB to WB although it may improve QOL for those who can't hold WB at the seniority they require. Retirements naturally help progression to WB, but since they don't really accelerate much during this contract, that argument is premature. I think the effect of VBs (and ALV widening) will indeed be felt by many.
My hunch is that getting paid UAL's hourly rate (well below the earnings of FedEx and UPS) is a carrot big enough to disregard these sticks, FWIW.
10-22-2016 | 06:02 PM
#63
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>>Who is going to bid VB/TDY? I'll answer: All most all if not all commuters. Why would a guy living in base bid one? <<
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
10-22-2016 | 07:54 PM
#64
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From: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
>>Who is going to bid VB/TDY? I'll answer: All most all if not all commuters. Why would a guy living in base bid one? <<
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
10-22-2016 | 10:37 PM
#65
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From: Kickin’ Back
Almost all commuters may bid a VB, but surely they won't all get it, right? How is it a boon to ALL commuters?
Will they all get it? I'd say that depends on a couple of factors but you are probably right. Not all of them will. As for the ones who don't, if they don't get it that can only mean that pilots senior to them got it so they have now increased their seniority in category. It remains to be seen how much time will be pulled out of the original category but my educated guess is that the pilots who don't get it will actually have better bidding power. The reason being the VB will have to have some kind of reserve coverage. This coverage is going to come from the guys who bid and get the VB.
It remains to be seen if the seniority many of the VBers achieve in their VBs makes the shift worthwhile. It's not even clear to me that bidders will be able to set a percentage floor for seniority. A 30% pilot could end up 99% in the VB if protections aren't provided. And those commuters who aren't selected to VB will be left with a smaller bid package in their existing base.
See above.
To your last point, I'm not sure the hiring rate affects one's progression from NB to WB although it may improve QOL for those who can't hold WB at the seniority they require. Retirements naturally help progression to WB, but since they don't really accelerate much during this contract, that argument is premature. I think the effect of VBs (and ALV widening) will indeed be felt by many.
My hunch is that getting paid UAL's hourly rate (well below the earnings of FedEx and UPS) is a carrot big enough to disregard these sticks, FWIW.
Will they all get it? I'd say that depends on a couple of factors but you are probably right. Not all of them will. As for the ones who don't, if they don't get it that can only mean that pilots senior to them got it so they have now increased their seniority in category. It remains to be seen how much time will be pulled out of the original category but my educated guess is that the pilots who don't get it will actually have better bidding power. The reason being the VB will have to have some kind of reserve coverage. This coverage is going to come from the guys who bid and get the VB.
It remains to be seen if the seniority many of the VBers achieve in their VBs makes the shift worthwhile. It's not even clear to me that bidders will be able to set a percentage floor for seniority. A 30% pilot could end up 99% in the VB if protections aren't provided. And those commuters who aren't selected to VB will be left with a smaller bid package in their existing base.
See above.
To your last point, I'm not sure the hiring rate affects one's progression from NB to WB although it may improve QOL for those who can't hold WB at the seniority they require. Retirements naturally help progression to WB, but since they don't really accelerate much during this contract, that argument is premature. I think the effect of VBs (and ALV widening) will indeed be felt by many.
My hunch is that getting paid UAL's hourly rate (well below the earnings of FedEx and UPS) is a carrot big enough to disregard these sticks, FWIW.
Denny
10-22-2016 | 10:46 PM
#66
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Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Kickin’ Back
>>Who is going to bid VB/TDY? I'll answer: All most all if not all commuters. Why would a guy living in base bid one? <<
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
Denny
10-23-2016 | 03:14 AM
#67
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 7,292
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From: A350 Both
>>Who is going to bid VB/TDY? I'll answer: All most all if not all commuters. Why would a guy living in base bid one? <<
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
Umm. Let's see. We don't know what the exact plans for VB are, but since you asked, here's a possible scenario:
--DAL announces a 757 VB in MCO for Jan/Feb/Mar. (there's a star right about there in the ALPA VB info-graphic too!)
--The MCO commuters celebrate, and bid for the VB.
--Unfortunately for the Florida crowd, several senior pilots living in MSP (or CVG..?) bid and hold the MCO VB, allowing them to become snowbirds at the company's expense.
--This comes at the expense of MCO commuters who will no longer even be able to get the occasional layover at home.
--It also comes at the expense of everyone below the 757, since it's a productivity give so the company will require less pilots.
No guarantee that this is how it will will work, but no guarantee it's NOT either. If the company asked for it there was a reason, and it probably wasn't to INcrease their labor costs. Not saying that VB might not be a smokin' deal for some of us (like the guys from MSP and CVG in the above scenario), but overall it's net loss (productivity concession) for the pilot group.
10-23-2016 | 09:36 AM
#70
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From: Kickin’ Back
Denny
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