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This is the most tragically delusional post I have read in a long time.

I was thinking the same thing. He is proving my point for me. The real world is about to hit him like a ton of bricks. I had his exact same attitude until one day some guys ran planes into buildings, oil spiked, age 65 and the recession. He doesn’t realize how shaky the deck of cards truly is. When I was new I always would listen to the seasoned guys. As my dad says “you have two ears and one mouth for a reason”. Some but definitely not all, of these rookies have no idea how quickly things change in this industry and the real reason why wages and QOL are improving. I am happy for these new guys and how well the industry is trending but if you don’t learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. Not only do some of these SJS guys not only not learning they are not caring to know about history in this business.

You are HOPING this is the case. We all are. But there are so many things that can make the industry go south in a hurry.

Wait until.you talk to the CA who were hired and told they would be at AA in 2 years. They also thought the industry was golden for the next 10 to 20 years. Read some history on Pan Am and eastern airlines of you think AAG is solid.

You have a lot to learn and HAVE BEEN WATCHING TO MANY OF SWAYNE'S VIDEOS.

Swayne may just be “presenting facts” but FOX and CNN both present the same news but don’t have the news cast.

He just needs to quit broadcasting until Envoy pilots get a raise.

Did no one notice he posted the recent video just a few hours before the union news? I bet he won’t post anything until it cools down.

Did you not notice he posted it during active negotiations while our union was at bat? Just because it was posted before the bad news broke does not negate the tastelessness of posting a recruitment video during pay negotiations. Your SA is about in line with Swayne’s, nonexistent.


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Very true statement inclined plane

Here’s a question. Do you honestly think his videos have enough pull to determine the success or failure of a contract worth tens of millions of dollars over time? I seriously doubt it. And if he does, he shouldn’t be a regional airline pilot.

Success or failure, absolutely not. But if he makes the difference in a few people it could make a difference by a few months of the company dragggginng things out. Already been long enough. We need EVERYTHING to make this happen sooner rather than later.

And apparently the company is going after those that say anything negative, so the least we can do is try to prevent ANYTHING that could POSSIBLY be positive.

Here Comes Swayne
 

So by your rationale, no single person affects any real change, is that it?

So do you advocate littering as well, since your garbage thrown out the window driving down the highway won’t completely destroy the environment single handedly, correct?

Your logic is flawed. You are attempting to rationalize poor decision making, into not being that big of a deal.

The point is that regardless of whether or not it has a severely negative impact against our pilots during a time of pay negotiations, it doesn’t matter. It’s still not the decent thing to do, because it may potentially harm Pilots by helping recruitment during pay negotiations.

Furthermore, the company is on record directly linking newhire numbers to whether or not they’d raise the pay, so I’d say yes it is entirely possible that a YouTuber could actually influence said contract worth tens of millions over time. Note that I merely said possible.

This guy gets it. Thank you.

The only reason management got away with such crappy pay and QOL is because you applied and accepted the job. Yet here you are on your high horse giving someone a hard time for the exact same thing you did (for less money and QOL even). Perspective.

I’m only gonna reply to you because you actually tried to give a meaningful reply to my post which is appreciated.

Now, a few things to point out. We all agree that he’s kept it factual so there’s no argument there. Because of that, I got a realistic glimpse into things like bidding, reserve, etc... That’s what I was referring too when I said that his videos helped me.

Next, I also said “pending a crisis.” I know we’re only a 9/11, market crash, oil spike away from furloughs. I didn’t say we were say, but the math is still there to support the statement “best time to get into aviation.”

Lastly, $40k/yr is by no means an amount to brag about. But if you plan accordingly, that will get you by until you can make more money as a CA or until you get to a major or LCC. Think I’m lying? That’s my reality right now (actually make a little less than $40k right now) as a married man. I’m not just a kid fresh out of some fancy school with an over priced degree eager to fly a jet. I have a responsibilities just like you all.

To end this, I’d like to say that it’s disheartening to see so many older guys come across salty. I know it’s because you all had it hard for nearly a decade thought. I don’t blame y’all for being jaded at times.

Hope y’all win the fight with management and get a pay raise and better QOL. Y’all deserve at least that.

The irony, eh?

At 55, I’m even older than most of these guys, got into the airlines at the “commuter” level in 1991 at age 27, lived through even worse times than most of them, and am very aware of the ups and downs of this business. With that said, I never let this job define me. I never let it affect my personal life. I ALWAYS (well usually, lol) enjoyed my crews, and the part of the job that started after we pushed and disconnected from the tug and were on our own.
Most of my friends in this business have been in the industry nearly as long as me and yet none of them let’s this job define them and they all are great people to hang around on any given day. They are NOT salty, crusty old dogs.
It’s perspective. Fight the fight, but don’t take it home with you. Don’t become that miserable dude we all HATE flying with. 😉

Typoooss I apologize

[QUOTE=Firefighterpilo;2840597]

I appreciate everyone’s input and opinion on here the debates help me have a robust understanding of different view points. I am in no way trying to appear salty i guess I did a bad job but was merely trying to help illustrate where some opinions on this matter may come from. I am only trying to show the possible thought process some may have. I honestly do not care one way or another. I genuinely love seeing people passionate about flying and excited about reaching their goals one reason I still instruct on occasion. I am merely trying to show you the negative reality that you could, but hopefully not, encounter in your long quest of this great career. This way some of you can do better maintaining an appropriate level of optimism then did. I learned the hard way that just wanting and expecting things to go a certain way, seldom ensures it does.

No high horse at all I am just providing a more realistic view of the industry. I absolutely did accept a job at that pay in the early 2000s. My airline management at that time was using bullet points identical to what Envoy recruiters, and these types of youtube videos are preaching to pilot prospects today. I honestly believe management has used the same recruiting propaganda for 40 years to get butts in seats and then recycle them from airline to airline. Back then I was promised fast movement, flow and upgrade in under 2 years with some new FOs holding lines right off IOE. None of which came to fruition in large part to outside forces that no one predicted or expected at the time. The era before the lost decade and the current climate are eerily similar in breadth prediction. In this industry things can and usually do change very rapid and unpredictability.

I was fortunate enough to have the majority of my family in the airline industry for decades going back to when the dc-3 was still doing the heavy lifting. The pilots in my immediate family have flown for PanAm, Eastern, Delta, United and Braniff and all have seen but never forecasted major life altering changes over the years. My grandfather was with Eastern at the peak in the 70s and also during the low of Frank Lorenzo era. He learned a very valuable and hard fought lesson watching scabs and management wipsaws ruin his beloved airline. After enduring the free fall the once stable Eastern Pilots faced while watching their executives make millions left a bad taste in his mouth. He made it a point for me to understand how things were, how they are and how fast they can change. Because of this mentorship by family and friends I felt like I had a grasp on the industries history and how managements predatory tactics with help from the RLA has shape the profession. At the time I felt I had a knowledgable solid foundation of what I could expect and most likely experience in my career based off the same info that is being preached to today’s new pilots. Turns out I was dead wrong and the perfect storm of bad events called “the lost decade” came to fruition. As heart breaking as it was I learned some great life lessons during this time I cherish.

As you so kindly pointed out I accepted the job thinking I knew what I was in for and how nothing would slow down this industry. Even though I tried to maintain reasonable expectations during that particular period of time, just like today, things were humming along and the outlook was rosy. I figured conservatively in that hiring environment I would be at a major 3-4 years after starting regional ioe. But when i was in my 6th year with the regional and still just an FO stuck on reserve with no end in sight (barely missing the dreaded furlough most others endured)I decided to re-evaluate life and make some hard decisions. Myself and many peers in the same boat made the tough choice of changing careers. Therefore voting with our feet.

I have been blessed during all this I now am fortunate to have an amazing career I love where daily I get to make positive and lasting changes in my community that leaves me fulfilled not just doing volunteer work to check a box. I am thankful my second profession provided me with many things flying never did including amazing pay, schedules, pensions, respect in the community, transferable skills and most importantly rock solid job stability. These reasons for me make going back to flying unrealistic at this stage. Fortunately I now have the time and disposable income to fly a few times a week to fulfill my aviation passion.

I did not intend to come across as preaching or in any way condescending. I merely was trying to provide some context about why some of his co workers might have issues with his videos and why these videos can rub some aviators the wrong way. This, just like it was when I was fresh out of college, is a great time to be a pilot. I truly hope this new generation of pilots will not experience the hardship that myself and those before me have experienced. But if history is any lesson pilots should hope for the best and plan on the worse. Careers can be similar to stocks you want to buy low and sale high. I am scared that rookies getting in right now maybe “buying” high and soon to be sold low.

The industry has changed course and been heading up but the top of a hill is usually followed with a steep and unexpected drop. Never forget that. Most of my college friends and colleagues are now on at the majors bidding senior FOs or junior captains. As seen on this thread there are still thousands of qualified experienced pilots on the sidelines waiting for the right changes to make flying viable and economically feasible career for them as daily more return to the cockpit. Myself, if I could make it work financially there are days I would love to go back to the airlines but alas I will wait till I can retire at 50 and then see where the cards fall. Luckily when I get the pilot bug my wife is quick to ground me and remind me how quickly aviation can go bad and how miserable it can be sometimes. More so with family and mortgages added in the mix.

I don’t mind his videos and see them as well produced and informative but I always try to listen to and understand both sides of an argument before forming any belief or opinion on the matter. Sorry about this long diatribe and tangents. In short Envoy and all pilots should always want there to be a shortage of prospects waiting in the pipe. It is one of the main forces that drives the current trend of salary and QOL improvements. Pilot shortages are great for pilots and bad for management. Low pay and bad contracts, the supply dwindles and flights cancel, pilots leave the field for more lucrative careers. Pool then dries up so management must now improve pilot salaries and benefits to attract qualified pilots. The smaller the pool of pilots the harder management must work to improve salaries and QOL to attract pilots away from their competitors. Conversely a large pool allows management to cut and wipesaw pilots against each other till they gut the elure of the profession so much guys leave, the pool shrinks, wash and repeat the cycles of the airline industry the last 70 years. In my experience as long as pilots keep showing up for class (a large pool) management sees no reason to improve wages. If tomorrow envoy stopped filling the training classes (small supply, large demand) it would make you head spin how fast management can find money to increase wages and QOL of their pilot group. One could make an argument that these videos don’t help increase Envoys hiring pool (Large supply)they may not hurt but the videos are definitely not helping the MEC and ALPA with the negotiation leverage that empty classes provide. At its worse and not my opinion one could argue, these videos can be construed as misleading management propaganda that paints a inaccurate or incomplete picture of the career compared to what many have experienced. IE serving the interest of management over labor. That coupled with with the whole society stigma many over 35 have against “social media influencers” clearly can and have created a unwarranted target that frustrated pilots to vent about.

I genuinely love this board and all the different types of personalities, prospective and experience that everyone brings. Fly safe!

Long but refreshing read. Thank you.

Cheers.

If he wanted to use his celebrity leverage for the benefit of the pilot group in this negotiation, he could simply set all of these videos to private until the negotiations are over.

The videos say "In Partnership with Envoy" and the Envoy logo is shown or Envoy mentioned numerous times adding that marketing benefit. His audience seems to be mostly high school kids and college kids in flight schools, (aka future cadets with shiny jet syndrome).

His videos are factual in what he describes, but he conveniently avoids or sugarcoats the negatives. For example, he describes his lines as same day commutable, but didn't mention that he needed to be at the Fargo airport before 5am to commute to a 5 leg day that ended 18 hours later. Or that his commutable on the back end trips only have 1 flight that leaves within an hour of his block in (hope he doesn't get delayed). These are things that someone who spent time in the industry will notice with caution, but they sound great to a starry-eyed CFI with a cadet application next to the computer.

He is specifically describing line holding in terms specific to Envoy. It doesn't seem like he knows or has researched line holding at other airlines. He just mentions "it varies". Yeah, it varies... in ways that are better at many other airlines.

I will give credit to the CAs in his videos. It seems like they are reluctantly agreeing to be in his videos as you usually only see the back of their heads.

I'm not sure if Envoy is paying him extra on the side. This kind of product placement would be worth big money to other youtube influencers. I haven't noticed any other revenue streams on his Envoy videos. His 2+ million views on Envoy would probably have earned him about $5,000 - $10,000 if he just had YT ads running.

Not quite.
I have a video on YT with almost 3M hits, and it’s roughly $1000/million views with ads on with YT.
Still decent money, but definitely not 10k

Just think how much it would hurt recruiting if he was telling 2 million people that Envoy has the lowest pay and worst QOL of almost any regional right now?

You’d probably have your raises tomorrow.

Maybe the pilots as a whole need to have a chat with ol swayneyboy...
If he refuses to make a video on the subject, then maybe that in itself is an answer to many questions being brought up here.

I think that’s a great idea.

Thing to remember is that the aviation industry is a small community and you don't want to make any enemies or burn any bridges. He isn't making many friends right now with current and former envoy pilots and some current AA pilots.

Yea, I think he’d go directly to management and claim harassment.

But nothings stopping you from posting a comment on his video calling him out though.

Not that it would deter him from changing what he’s doing.

I agree, which is why I think it would have to be a letter from all the pilots at envoy as a whole. Maybe if there was a group that all the envoy pilots belonged to that took on bargaining and grievances.

I think everyone needs to step back and respect his extensive insight and experience in the airline industry..........

That would defeat the whole purpose: Attention

If the dude was making the same videos about flight training or instruction, OK fine. Not my cup of tea, but that's a generational thing.

But he's making enthusiastic, positive videos about his employment at an airline that a) has one the lower-ranked contracts in the industry b) is in negotiations and c) they are not going well.

Ya'll should encourage him to zip it. He must have been told that by somebody by now. I frankly would not want him in my pilot group although with flow I guess he doesn't have to care what anyone thinks.

Claxstarr....I'm sure you are well intentioned, but that first sentence could be misconstrued.

I agree.

While I honestly believe if he made a video about the actual pay and QOL compared to other regionals it would cause classes to start drying up pretty quickly. Realistically though, he probably won’t do that. At the least he needs to refrain until you guys get true meaningful gains.

Looking at one of his most recent videos just 3 comments down and I quote...

“As I stated in your other posts, you are an excellent SPOKESMAN for your airline. MANAGEMENT must know this. I can see you being an instructor in no time.”

CAPS are my doing, but that is a direct verbatim quote.

Milage may vary. I have no idea what your videos are about, or how well they convert on ad play and click through rates. His are very specific, and I estimate that his videos would have a high bid and conversion rates from flight schools and regional recruiters.

The product pitch is the bigger issue. I know a girl with about a quarter of his views that made well over $10k by doing product demos for about a minute in each of her videos. This guy is making 10 minute infomercials.

So let me get this straight. His videos are bad for pilots during contract negotiations. But they’re good when the contract is good, because it keeps people coming in the door?... Thus, the flow continues unimpeded.

Do any of you want the chance at flowing one day? Sounds like he’s helping you get there :eek:

Swayne’s videos are authorized by Envoy. He will never make anything that will hurt his ability to continue that relationship which tells where his allegiance is.

And I’m reasonably certain he has some sort of written agreement (contract) to do these videos. If he wants to stay in the graces of the pilot group, he should just keep those videos off the cyber until there is a new pay agreement. HIS agreement may say he has to do a certain number or frequency or may not.

But again, whether you think he has no impact, or a huge impact on numbers at Envoy, ANYTHING that does not HELP the pilot group is helping the company.

A friend of my enemy is my enemy and it is good to keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

His videos need to stop.

Sounds like the company line on why they can pay us so little.

But there is flow...

The flow is not a guarantee beyond a certain point. Also there are no guarantees any of us will be able to continue to fly. The flow may or may not have a future value, but increased pay and QOL have a current value.

Personally I don’t mind his videos and see them as well produced and selectively informative for the purpose they serve. However I am clearly not the target audience these are heavily pandering towards others (ie..CFI with SJS and flight sim “pro pilots”.) These videos provide positive reinforcement to those who want their beliefs of the industry verified and not challenge. Like msnbc to liberals or Fox News to conservatives it is nothing more then an echo chamber giving the uninitiated a very one dimensional view. I try to listen to and understand both sides of an argument before forming any belief or opinion on the matter, and believe those coming into this field, need a unbiased and comprehensive overview on the reality of this industry, not the white washed, flight school narrative these candidates are bombarded by flight schools and reenforced throygh recruitment Depts.

In short Envoy pilots and all pro aviators should always desire there to be a shortage of prospects waiting in the pipe. It is one of the main forces that drives the current trend of salary and QOL improvements. Pilot shortages are great for pilots and bad for management. Low pay and bad contracts, the supply dwindles and flights cancel, pilots leave the field for more lucrative careers. Pool then dries up so management must now improve pilot salaries and benefits to attract qualified pilots. The smaller the pool of pilots the harder management must work to improve salaries and QOL to attract pilots away from their competitors. Conversely a large pool allows management to cut and wipesaw pilots against each other till they gut the elure of the profession causing many guys to leave and others not to pursue , the pool shrinks again, wash and repeat and thus the cycles of the airline industry the last 70 years. In my experience as long as pilots keep showing up for class (a large pool) management sees no reason to improve wages or conditions. Why would they? Cutting cost and doing more with less is in their job description. However, if tomorrow envoy stopped filling the training classes (small supply, large demand) it would make your head spin how fast management can find money to increase wages and QOL of their pilot group. One could make an argument that these videos only nominally help increase Envoys hiring pool (Large supply). That may be true but his channel is definitely not helping the MEC with the important negotiation leverage that empty classes provide. The regional business model is built in a way that empty training classes provides the greatest leverage to counter the management negotiation tactics of maintaining status quo. When the inability of the recruitment dept to fill it’s class sizes occurs, the exec’s perk their ears up and offer change. To management this loss of supply represents solid financial proof that current pilot wages are not insync with the present market factors influencing pilot supply and demand. As shown many times over then, and only then, will management submit to pay and QOL improvements. As long as Envoy can fill their seats, and they are thanks in part to glossy recruitment ads and Swayne’s videos, management will drag its feet on negotiations, thus saving money and pleasing investors. The day tangible evidence shows current contracts are below market indicators things will improve but not until this point. At its worse, and not necessarily my personal opinion, one could argue, these videos can be construed as misleading management propaganda that paints a inaccurate or incomplete picture of the career compared to what many have experienced. IE serving the interest of management over labor. That coupled with with the whole society stigma many over the age of 35 have against “social media influencers”, helps create a perfect storm drawing disdain, complaints and ire from his peers and other experience airline pilots. For years management salivates and utilize these types of videos to toe the company line and undermine its unions. In summary if you are not helping you are hurting and Swayne is definitely not helping.

I never said they were good. They might be good for young and future aviators. They’re also good for management, but they are certainly not good for the pilot group no matter if times are good or times are bad.

I’m guessing you’re relatively new in the 121 world. Your “25 million dollar” contract isn’t at the hands of Swayne Martin. It’s at the hands of how many people are showing up for class. It doesn’t matter if you have Jimmy Hoffa and Al Capone in the flesh negotiating for you. If you are still filling classes... you will get jack squat and like it. Swayne Martin is a major influence on how many people show up for class. A lot of people getting into the regionals don’t know that Envoy has some of lowest pay and worst QOL of the industry right now. Sure maybe things are just like they were 2-3 years ago, but the difference is a new hire will have a much better experience at almost any other airline right now. A lot of new hires don’t realize that. A lot of them only know what they hear from recruiters, see advertised on Envoy’s website, and what they see in Swayne’s videos. And I would guess more people see what they think life is like from Swayne than they do from recruiters. He’s a huge influence.

If Envoy cuts the flow for any reason recruitment would go from hero to zero in no time. Even Swayne couldn’t salvage that.

Yep, never underestimate the ignorance/stupidity of bug-eyed 23-24 year old CFI's looking to go for a regional. They will apply to the first regional they see and accept an offer from the first regional that extends said offer. When you type "regional airline pilot" into the search bar, two of the first five videos are Swayne's videos, and these CFI's will hear the words "Envoy" and then go apply at Envoy and get hired.

You can make all of the reasoned arguments about pay, QOL, long-term prospects, etc. but those arguments do not resonate with the vast majority of 23-24 year olds that are flying 172's for pennies and just want to get out of flight instructing. They will pick a regional that has substandard pay, substandard QOL, and in many cases has bases nowhere near where they live necessitating a two-leg commute just because they saw a video on youtube or one of their flight instructors went there. I know people that live in a place with 9 flights to DFW a day that went to Piedmont and commuted two legs to their crappy outstation base because their old flight instructor went there and kept in touch with them and blew smoke up their ass. It defies all logic.

At least one fo here is getting paid close to what they deserve.