Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841152)

I am not even discussing whether or not pilots should or shouldn't dislike the videos. My statements have been simple. I have started by saying that personally attacking people anonymously and in public is unprofessional, not to mention cowardly. The fact that anyone's sexuality has been brought into this thread shows just how embarrassing the conduct has been so far. Do you disagree?

Then, I responded to posts that attacked someone for having company permission to use their brand in social media, while they don't have that same permission. I challenged you to put yourself in Envoy's shoes and understand what a financial risk it would be to allow their brand to be represented by a group of people who have no problem publicly calling people "disgusting" because of their sexual preference. You are not anonymous. Envoy management knows you are Envoy pilots and can read these posts along with the general public. Why should they trust anyone here with their brand without vetting them first? There shouldn't be any complaints here about being forbidden from representing Envoy in social media, because there is proof here that Envoy pilots at large can't be trusted.

Finally, I understand how it looks that Envoy specifically allows certain posts that don't portray it in a negative light, and how a logo can be used as subliminal advertising even without direct "recruiting". If you disagree with the videos and/or their timing, there are certain channels to be used to have your concerns addressed professionally. I wonder how many of you have talked to your reps, or to the person himself, before making personal attacks here from behind your screen name...?

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2841163)

I never made any arguments about being professional. That’s all on you.

And obviously the company wouldn’t trust anyone else because they know they would tell it like it is. No one would show up for class. “I don’t know why that’s so hard for you to understand.”

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841166)

When did I say you made an argument about being professional?

And again, "telling it like it is" isn't always in the interest of the business, especially in this business. It's their business prerogative to limit the use of their brand. Feel free to keep whining about it.

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841152)

Then, I responded to posts that attacked someone for having company permission to use their brand in social media, while they don't have that same permission. I challenged you to put yourself in Envoy's shoes and understand what a financial risk it would be to allow their brand to be represented by a group of people who have no problem publicly calling people "disgusting" because of their sexual preference. You are not anonymous. Envoy management knows you are Envoy pilots and can read these posts along with the general public. Why should they trust anyone here with their brand without vetting them first?

Originally Posted by Firefighterpilo (Post 2841165)

You are a professional diverter. None of the points you keep spouting anyone here is debating. It like if we are arguing the color of a tree and you keep interjecting the average weight of a bark beetle. They are not related points nor important to the argument. Nowhere has anyone argued your above points.

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2841168)

You claimed I was saying your argument wasn’t legitimate. I never said legitimate. I said professional. Like the previous poster said, “you’re a professional diverter”.

No one is arguing what the company’s prerogative is. Everyone on here is basically saying the same thing... Swayne’s videos are not helping the pilot group.

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841174)

Now you're confused. When I said legitimate, I was talking about my screen name, not whatever argument I was making. Try to keep up!

For the 10th time, what you think about the videos is your rightful opinion and doesn't bother me at all. But there are ways to voice that opinion without making yourself and your colleagues look bigoted and unprofessional.

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841174)

For the 10th time, what you think about the videos is your rightful opinion and doesn't bother me at all. But there are ways to voice that opinion without making yourself and your colleagues look bigoted and unprofessional. And before you start, I'm not talking about you specifically.

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2841177)

I not once made any comments that would make me or anyone else look bigoted. If anything I said they were uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2841177)

Would you rather talk about stupid comments that 3 people made on an anonymous forum or would you rather talk about how to put an extra 20k in your pocket every year? Unless you’re management....

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841183)

^I guess I added this part too late..Of course. Let's ignore all the terrible personal attacks made in this thread since it's the only way anyone here can be taken seriously. So, let's talk about it. Have you made any communications to your reps regarding these videos? Or is anonymous online b**ching the only plan?

Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 2841170)

Look, no one is wanting to make YouTube videos representing the company besides Swayne. You seem to to misunderstand that fact.

Folks were only complaining about being expressly told (and made to complete online training) about not being able to post any sort of pics or videos while in uniform on any social media. You know, like posting selfies on Facebook.

The original annoyance with Swayne however, was that only a few weeks after being told via HI6 that no one may post any pics or videos in uniform or on company property, on any social media, a newhire starting basic Indoc goes and starts posting company sponsored videos.

Even though the videos are company sponsored, they were a direct contradiction of what the company just said no one was allowed to do. They offered no explanation to the pilot group, and instead double downed on their deadline for all to complete the mandatory social media abstinence training.

This does not mean that Pilots here actually wanted to make videos like Swayne, (aside from perhaps Aviator Chavez) so your plea to understand the company’s “financial risk” “to allow their brand to be represented” by other envoy Pilots besides Swayne, is way off the mark. No one is wanting to. No one is bitter about that. No one cares to. No one can believe you are trying to make a point about that, at least I can’t.

All anyone is currently annoyed about, is that he may potentially be helping management and may be helping recruiting during critical pay negotiations when the company is on record saying healthy class sizes are directly negating the need to increase pay.

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Originally Posted by Firefighterpilo (Post 2840597)

I appreciate everyone’s input and opinion on here the debates help me have a robust understanding of different view points. I am in no way trying to appear salty i guess I did a bad job but was merely trying to help illustrate where some opinions on this matter may come from. I am only trying to show the possible thought process some may have. I honestly do not care one way or another. I genuinely love seeing people passionate about flying and excited about reaching their goals one reason I still instruct on occasion. I am merely trying to show you the negative reality that you could, but hopefully not, encounter in your long quest of this great career. This way some of you can do better maintaining an appropriate level of optimism then did. I learned the hard way that just wanting and expecting things to go a certain way, seldom ensures it does.

No high horse at all I am just providing a more realistic view of the industry. I absolutely did accept a job at that pay in the early 2000s. My airline management at that time was using bullet points identical to what Envoy recruiters, and these types of youtube videos are preaching to pilot prospects today. I honestly believe management has used the same recruiting propaganda for 40 years to get butts in seats and then recycle them from airline to airline. Back then I was promised fast movement, flow and upgrade in under 2 years with some new FOs holding lines right off IOE. None of which came to fruition in large part to outside forces that no one predicted or expected at the time. The era before the lost decade and the current climate are eerily similar in breadth prediction. In this industry things can and usually do change very rapid and unpredictability.

I was fortunate enough to have the majority of my family in the airline industry for decades going back to when the dc-3 was still doing the heavy lifting. The pilots in my immediate family have flown for PanAm, Eastern, Delta, United and Braniff and all have seen but never forecasted major life altering changes over the years. My grandfather was with Eastern at the peak in the 70s and also during the low of Frank Lorenzo era. He learned a very valuable and hard fought lesson watching scabs and management wipsaws ruin his beloved airline. After enduring the free fall the once stable Eastern Pilots faced while watching their executives make millions left a bad taste in his mouth. He made it a point for me to understand how things were, how they are and how fast they can change. Because of this mentorship by family and friends I felt like I had a grasp on the industries history and how managements predatory tactics with help from the RLA has shape the profession. At the time I felt I had a knowledgable solid foundation of what I could expect and most likely experience in my career based off the same info that is being preached to today’s new pilots. Turns out I was dead wrong and the perfect storm of bad events called “the lost decade” came to fruition. As heart breaking as it was I learned some great life lessons during this time I cherish.

As you so kindly pointed out I accepted the job thinking I knew what I was in for and how nothing would slow down this industry. Even though I tried to maintain reasonable expectations during that particular period of time, just like today, things were humming along and the outlook was rosy. I figured conservatively in that hiring environment I would be at a major 3-4 years after starting regional ioe. But when i was in my 6th year with the regional and still just an FO stuck on reserve with no end in sight (barely missing the dreaded furlough most others endured)I decided to re-evaluate life and make some hard decisions. Myself and many peers in the same boat made the tough choice of changing careers. Therefore voting with our feet.

I have been blessed during all this I now am fortunate to have an amazing career I love where daily I get to make positive and lasting changes in my community that leaves me fulfilled not just doing volunteer work to check a box. I am thankful my second profession provided me with many things flying never did including amazing pay, schedules, pensions, respect in the community, transferable skills and most importantly rock solid job stability. These reasons for me make going back to flying unrealistic at this stage. Fortunately I now have the time and disposable income to fly a few times a week to fulfill my aviation passion.

I did not intend to come across as preaching or in any way condescending. I merely was trying to provide some context about why some of his co workers might have issues with his videos and why these videos can rub some aviators the wrong way. This, just like it was when I was fresh out of college, is a great time to be a pilot. I truly hope this new generation of pilots will not experience the hardship that myself and those before me have experienced. But if history is any lesson pilots should hope for the best and plan on the worse. Careers can be similar to stocks you want to buy low and sale high. I am scared that rookies getting in right now maybe “buying” high and soon to be sold low.

The industry has changed course and been heading up but the top of a hill is usually followed with a steep and unexpected drop. Never forget that. Most of my college friends and colleagues are now on at the majors bidding senior FOs or junior captains. As seen on this thread there are still thousands of qualified experienced pilots on the sidelines waiting for the right changes to make flying viable and economically feasible career for them as daily more return to the cockpit. Myself, if I could make it work financially there are days I would love to go back to the airlines but alas I will wait till I can retire at 50 and then see where the cards fall. Luckily when I get the pilot bug my wife is quick to ground me and remind me how quickly aviation can go bad and how miserable it can be sometimes. More so with family and mortgages added in the mix.

I don’t mind his videos and see them as well produced and informative but I always try to listen to and understand both sides of an argument before forming any belief or opinion on the matter. Sorry about this long diatribe and tangents. In short Envoy and all pilots should always want there to be a shortage of prospects waiting in the pipe. It is one of the main forces that drives the current trend of salary and QOL improvements. Pilot shortages are great for pilots and bad for management. Low pay and bad contracts, the supply dwindles and flights cancel, pilots leave the field for more lucrative careers. Pool then dries up so management must now improve pilot salaries and benefits to attract qualified pilots. The smaller the pool of pilots the harder management must work to improve salaries and QOL to attract pilots away from their competitors. Conversely a large pool allows management to cut and wipesaw pilots against each other till they gut the elure of the profession so much guys leave, the pool shrinks, wash and repeat the cycles of the airline industry the last 70 years. In my experience as long as pilots keep showing up for class (a large pool) management sees no reason to improve wages. If tomorrow envoy stopped filling the training classes (small supply, large demand) it would make you head spin how fast management can find money to increase wages and QOL of their pilot group. One could make an argument that these videos don’t help increase Envoys hiring pool (Large supply)they may not hurt but the videos are definitely not helping the MEC and ALPA with the negotiation leverage that empty classes provide. At its worse and not my opinion one could argue, these videos can be construed as misleading management propaganda that paints a inaccurate or incomplete picture of the career compared to what many have experienced. IE serving the interest of management over labor. That coupled with with the whole society stigma many over 35 have against “social media influencers” clearly can and have created a unwarranted target that frustrated pilots to vent about.

I genuinely love this board and all the different types of personalities, prospective and experience that everyone brings. Fly safe!

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2841186)

You can call people out for stupid comments, but don’t make it the main point of a much different and bigger problem. It’s 3 people. Go outside. Live a little. People made fun of me all the time in high school. I moved on.

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841187)

Btw, not once did I say people want to post videos like Swayne. Don't put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 2841190)

Not putting words in your mouth. It’s called inference. BTW, I’m not misunderstanding anything.


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Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841189)

Again, we aren't talking about my feelings or your time in high school. We are talking about business. Business decisions and business PR. Your lack of understanding in this subject is a prime example of why I believe Envoy might be justified in limiting pilots and their brand's social media exposure.

I'll ignore the rest of your post..

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841193)

You must be, because the conclusions you are arriving at using your inference have all been wrong so far. Literally the first sentence in your last post was completely off base, and I explained why.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 2841197)

I explained the back history because in my opinion, you are so far off base. It was an attempt at root cause analysis (which went over your head). Your arguments are just so flatly off to me, and I have no idea as to where you are deriving them (as others have pointed out as well).

So, I’d say best of luck. Carry on. I literally feel that I’m being trolled at this point. So I’m disengaging. If you’re not trolling, well let’s just agree to disagree.


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Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 2841197)

I explained the back history because in my opinion, you are so far off base. It was an attempt at root cause analysis (which went over your head). Your arguments are just so flatly off to me, and I have no idea as to where you are deriving them (as others have pointed out as well).

So, I’d say best of luck. Carry on. I literally feel that I’m being trolled at this point. So I’m disengaging. If you’re not trolling, well let’s just agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841200)

Your attempt at root cause analysis was wrong. And I explained why. You didn't like that and now you dismiss me as a troll because you have nothing else to offer. So yes, it would be best for you to disengage. Good evening.

Originally Posted by Thedude86 (Post 2841195)

Dude, that has not been your main argument lol. Again, professional diverter.

And I completely understand business PR. I never said Swayne is bad for business. Quite the opposite actually. Swayne is great for business. Bad for the pilot group.

You remind me of my ex-wife. You hear what you want to hear, interpret it in a totally different way, and change the subject when you realize everyone is making a valid argument.

There are a few other posters on here that are ok with Swayne’s videos, but I don’t have a problem with them because they’re sensible and rationale. You on the other hand are way out in lala land and all over the place and I don’t think anyone on here is taking you seriously.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane (Post 2841170)

Look, no one is wanting to make YouTube videos representing the company besides Swayne. You seem to to misunderstand that fact.

Folks were only complaining about being expressly told (and made to complete online training) about not being able to post any sort of pics or videos while in uniform on any social media. You know, like posting selfies on Facebook.

The original annoyance with Swayne however, was that only a few weeks after being told via HI6 that no one may post any pics or videos in uniform or on company property, on any social media, a newhire starting basic Indoc goes and starts posting company sponsored videos.

Even though the videos are company sponsored, they were a direct contradiction of what the company just said no one was allowed to do. They offered no explanation to the pilot group, and instead double downed on their deadline for all to complete the mandatory social media abstinence training.

This does not mean that Pilots here actually wanted to make videos like Swayne, (aside from perhaps Aviator Chavez) so your plea to understand the company’s “financial risk” “to allow their brand to be represented” by other envoy Pilots besides Swayne, is way off the mark. No one is wanting to. No one is bitter about that. No one cares to. No one can believe you are trying to make a point about that, at least I can’t.

All anyone is currently annoyed about, is that he may potentially be helping management and may be helping recruiting during critical pay negotiations when the company is on record saying healthy class sizes are directly negating the need to increase pay.

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Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841202)

I've only made two simple points. I'll try to spell it out.

1. The conduct in this thread has been marred by a lack of professionalism. So it is understandable that Envoy management would be wary about allowing its pilots represent its brand on social media.

2. The conduct in this thread has been marred by a lack of professionalism. There are more respectable, professional, and effective ways to voice concerns and encourage actions to better the position of the pilot group.

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 2841244)

This is the common tactic of someone that is trying to change the direction of a disagreement that they can't win into something that they can.

We are not arguing for the right to post videos, you know that so stop pushing the argument. The only reason us posting videos even came up was because you tried to tell us to post counterpoint videos.

The issue is a fellow pilot posting recruitment videos not telling the full story during a time of pretty intense negotiations. You notice how this topic has swelled since the company walked away from the AIP, which also happened to be the same day he posted another video?

Stop trying to change the topic.

Originally Posted by poopplop (Post 2841270)

Not once have I made any comments about the videos themselves because AGAIN, I don't mind people having one opinion or the other. I have only made comments about the unprofessional posts on this thread and the counterproductive consequences they might have. You responded to my comments. If you didn't want to talk about that, why did you respond?

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 2841275)

I am going to be done responding to you on this matter. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 2841060)

Any action at this point that helps the company or shows them in a positive light is a direct affront to the current pilot group and the union.

Originally Posted by pitchattitude (Post 2841064)

There have clearly been some posts that have been aimed personally at Swayne and his lifestyle and whether you agree or disagree either side of the subject, they have no place on this forum and thus have no bearing on this issue.

Originally Posted by WhipWhitaker (Post 2841338)

He made it about that when he brought that desecrated abomination of an American flag and slung it up in front the company’s plane. Fair game. Professionals leave that sort of thing at home when they come to work.

Originally Posted by WhipWhitaker (Post 2841338)

He made it about that when he brought that desecrated abomination of an American flag and slung it up in front the company’s plane. Fair game. Professionals leave that sort of thing at home when they come to work.

Originally Posted by Weekendwarrior2 (Post 2841372)

It was a recruiting event during pride month? Not sure what you don’t get about that. Way more professional then the time I walked into a plane with some BS religious propaganda attached to the CA and FO yolks. I could care less what anyone’s views are, but don’t try to spread yours by intentionally leaving stuff behind like that...goes for both sides.

Originally Posted by Air Stang 7 (Post 2841375)

What makes one more unprofessional than the other? Both are personal things that don’t belong in the workplace.

Originally Posted by henryjj (Post 2841496)

Swayne just made it clear where he stands on all this.. check out his Instagram or Facebook. Sounds like he’s more on ALPAs side than many thought.

Originally Posted by henryjj (Post 2841496)

Swayne just made it clear where he stands on all this.. check out his Instagram or Facebook. Sounds like he’s more on ALPAs side than many thought.

Originally Posted by wiz5422 (Post 2841516)

Care to elaborate for those that don't have social media?

Originally Posted by henryjj (Post 2841496)

Swayne just made it clear where he stands on all this.. check out his Instagram or Facebook. Sounds like he’s more on ALPAs side than many thought.

Originally Posted by WhipWhitaker (Post 2841338)

He made it about that when he brought that desecrated abomination of an American flag and slung it up in front the company’s plane. Fair game. Professionals leave that sort of thing at home when they come to work.