Agreed! Our union should have a position on Swayne and management, and if they do, I’m not aware of it. It must be really good to “play” on both sides.

To those that think this is some sort of violation against ALPA, is this your first airline? I have never seen any ALPA contract that would prevent what he is doing. Any ALPA is permitted to have another job. In this case, Swayne's other job is with the same company. That isn't unique. I've created training material that an airline liked and bought it. How is that different?

How do you even know if he’s an ALPA member? There ARE people who don’t join.

I don't. I'm just trying to let people know that even if he was an ALPA member, there is no reason why he can't also work with management. I'm sure Envoy has a pilot recruitment department that has several ALPA pilots in it. They go to colleges and tell people how great Envoy is. That is exactly what Swayne is doing.

Here Comes Swayne
 

Just give him the title of Pilot Recruiter and call it good

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You are grasping at straws. Are you new to 121? Do you realize that management pilots do delivery flights and maintenance flights? What about when an airline brings a plane to an airshow? How do you think that is handled? What Swayne is doing is no different. If your contract has something that specifically prevents management from assigning pilots to non-revenue flights, then you would have a case. I have never seen that before and I would be surprised that Envoy and ALPA would look the other way, so I am going to assume the Envoy contract does not prevent management from picking pilots for special projects that also involves operating aircraft. Again, did you also complain when some pilots are picked to work tables at career fairs?

Ummmm pretty sure we can hate both equally. This is America after all.

Queue the dingbats.

"THIS IS AMERICA"
"I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HATE"
"PELOSI CAN'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME"

Maybe we can get this thread closed, like some people have been asking for for... years? Has it been years yet?

Summary;

Outside pilot accuses Envoy pilots of grasping at straws, supports argument with guesses and assumptions.

Are my assumptions (based on 3 ALPA carriers and 5 contracts) wrong? Does the Envoy contract actually restrict line pilots from taking part in pilot recruitment? Does Envoy contract place limits on what pilots can operate for non-revune flights?

I don’t really care either way but the thought crossed my mind regarding our contract and OT/reserve assignments for OT. Unless the trips are being assigned specifically as “SA”? Although that could potentially spiral back to providing an opportunity not available to everyone else. Even then, I don’t know the full story on that nor do I care enough to look all of that stuff up in the contract. :cool:

That's the problem. Everyone thinks what he is doing is wrong, but is too lazy or uninformed to look it up. Airlines are able to create nonrevenue flights without any input from ALPA. Airlines can pick pilots for these flights. I will ask this again, who do you think performs delivery flights, flights to air shows, or flights to colleges for pilot recruitment? This idea that Envoy has to offer every line pilot the same opportunity is false. What Swayne is doing is outside of revenue flying and is not subject to ALPA. Do you also claim unfairness when Envoy picks pilots to conduct interviews?

So again, I do not care about SM or his videos. I simply posted some ideas based off of our contract that might help somebody else figure out a better argument against his videos. I think I read earlier that you are not a part of envoy and don’t have our contract. We’ve got some different OT rules than the norm, and while you are correct that the airline can create flights at their leisure I was simply stating that there could possibly be an argument that it goes against the contract when assigning said OT trips for his filming purposes as he is not a management pilot. Maybe you do not know this but the pilots who do interviews are designated to work in the recruitment office and are not normal line pilots who are randomly asked to come in on a day off to conduct interviews. Maybe you also do not know this but delivery flights are usually picked up from the factory by, you guessed it, pilots designated as management pilots (meaning that they have special designation and another job title other than line pilot) or by pilots on reserve in accordance with the reserve rules outlined in the, you guessed it again, ALPA contract. So nonrevenue flying here actually does fall under the ALPA contract to an extent.

Everyone thinks they know everything about everything until they realize that they don’t.

So the majority of your accusations are solved if Envoy gives Swayne a title. How do you know they didn't? He has been doing this for years, this thread gets a lot of attention, do you think ALPA isn't aware? Rather than throwing uninformed accusations around, contact your ALPA rep and get to the bottom of it. The accusations on this thread are very serious. Every few months, there is an airline pilot trying to make it on youtube. Most get shut down pretty quickly because they end up violating a company policy. The fact that Swayne has been doing this for so long with so much attention makes me think ALPA is aware and doesn't care.

Ouch... reading comprehension is not strong with this one. I have made no accusations and only speculated on why some of our pilots may be upset. Maybe he does have another title and has been hired by the recruiting department as well but that links back to my original comment of "I do not care". If he is hired or has been hired to have another title then that would mean he would no longer be just a normal line pilot and would then not be held to the normal contract and would have access to these SAs the same as delivery flights, interviews, etc.. (weird, it is almost like I said that before). I replied to you because you are making incorrect assumptions (and uninformed accusations) based on your "experience" about our contract and overall operation when you openly admitted that you do not have a clue. I would contact my rep if I cared and would urge any other actual envoy pilot in good standing with the union to do the same if they care. Cool story about the other airline pilots out there trying to make it, but I am not sure why that matters to the conversation you and I have had. I agree that ALPA is aware and most likely does not care, but in case you have not noticed, there have been far larger issues pressing them in the last year or two that requires more attention (see COVID, AIP, etc) which would make this a really small blip on their radar that could just be on a back burner.

Safe flying out there if you are still doing so.

Your assumptions are incorrect.

Section 24 is Supervisory/Special flying;

Basically if the company wants Swayne to help them as a special PR person, they need to take him off line flying and front his salary as part of the recruiting/management budget. Not line pilot credit. The get around this because Swayne is running his own business using Envoy flying while selling the content back to Envoy.

Section 26 is dedicated to Maintenance pilot positions. These are qualified and bid roles with special contractual pay and rules.

Envoy has the old Eagle contract which dates to the 1980's. It's 700 pages and the most comprehensive regional pilot contract in existence that I know of.

Then I will retract everything I have said. I was wrong on the internet:(.

What's the deal with your union then? Why haven't they addressed this? Contrary to my appearance, I am not a fan of pilot youtube personalities. That's the only reason I noticed this thread. Swayne stuck out to me because he was one of the few that I couldn't find was doing something wrong. If I were an Envoy pilot, I would demand a response from my rep.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think the union can do about it?

It should be treated as any other incorrectly assigned trip should be treated; file a grievance pay & the pilots that would have been qualified to operate any flight Swayne did. This is really common stuff that anyone involved with ALAP should be able to handle.

I've been occasionally involved with ALPA, and I have no clue what you are talking about.
No arbitrator would ever side with the association over a pilot who occasionally does S/As for recruiting purposes. There are also a few annoying things you have to prove, such as quantifiable harm to the pilot group and so on. And all of this with the strict burden of proof that ALPA would have in arbitration.

yeah take my Joke statement of it is America as a political statement. Delusional much? Did the president touch you in your Nono place?

Dude, I know it wasn't. Just trying to start trouble.

With all this fancy modern technology we still have no method to effectively express sarcasm via forms? Can't we get a button for that?

Apples & oranges. He is not a management pilot. You think a management pilot bids a line and flys 75 hours a month, having multiple FDP's?

If the company takes him off on S/A to do a specific flight that's pretty much management rights. So is the rest of what he's doing. They can remove and pay protect a guy, then stick SM in on a flight under S/A pretty much at will... (assuming the rules haven't changed much since I left)

This topic has been beaten to death and now you’ve enticed Cuj out of his lair to offer up some wildly inaccurate and ridiculous statements and he doesn’t even work here. SM is WELL within his rights to do this and you guys really should be THANKING him. Yes, those videos help recruitment where I’ve worked in the past. Let me tell you it is not an easy job.

According to Varsity, Swayne is violating the contract according to Section 24. Arbitrators don't care if the contract is violated only occasionally. A violation is a violation. I have had grievances filed for as little as 4 minutes of flight time and won.

Either Swayne is violating the contract or he isn't. If he is, then there is no excuse why ALPA would allow it to continue.

I was just listing examples to counter those on this thread that think ALPA pilots can't do anything in addition to line flying.

That was my point. Management can pick pilots to do other tasks outside of line flying. And management does not need to make those opportunities available to all. They can be as selective as they want.

This is comical given your post/prediction history.
Lots of free time on your hands lately?

I can almost guarantee you did not have a grievance over 4 minutes. Or that it was seen by an arbitrator. You might want to check your terminology.

I do not see how he is violating the contract.

If someone thinks he is, they should file a dispute and show harm.
We have quite a few pilots on occasional S/As for various reasons.

lmao nice.

Waaaa waaaa waaa. This thread really shows y’all’s culture over at Envoy. Sad stuff.
​​​​​​​

And you show your small mindedness by thinking a few posts in APC defines a culture.
Sad stuff.
​​​​​​​

wouldn’t call it a few posts - but you certainly have a point, touché. def the minority around here.

Would seeking to film a cockpit of a parked aircraft for a kid's Zoom class and being denied by Envoy considered harm?

Why can Swayne film for his own profit, while other pilots can't even film a parked airplane for educational purposes?

Where is the equal protection?

If you were harmed in a material way (usually this is considered either losing time off or money), yes. I do not think that would qualify.

Swayne can film because company allows him.

There is no equal protection under the RLA.

This falls under management rights. Swayne is not the only pilot doing S/As, and when he is bought off his trips, bunch of line pilots pick up his stuff at 150%. Kinda hard to show real harm to our pilots. I don't have the latest number, but 2019 it was around 50 pilots who did recruitment trips as S/As. Swayne wasn't even the most active one.

By here are you referring to Envoy? I thought you flowed and got furloughed from “the greatest airline in the world.”

What are you doing for work these days? If I had to guess, it’d be used car sales.

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LOL amazing work :cool:

You are correct. All I had to do was bring it to the attention of ALPA and a corrected paycheck was issued. My point was that if the company is violating the contract, ALPA will address it. If for some reason, the company didn't correct my paycheck, it would have gone through the entire grievance process.

The idea that Swayne and Envoy are violating the contract be either not paying him out of management's marketing budget or assigning him flights that some other pilot should have been able to do yet ALPA doesn't think that is important is laughable. I have seen ALPA take far less much more seriously.

Envoy ALPA isn't typical ALPA. They don't rattle the cage in fear of jeopardizing their own flow. Company has a history of targeting and firing union reps.

At envoy you have to submit a contract dispute for any violation.

The only thing that gets done outside of the contract disputes are representation and the odd phone call to scheduling when there’s still time to correct something for a pilot.

What happens if you directly ask your rep about what Swayne is doing. Get a rep responding in email that Envoy is violating the contract, but ALPA doesn't want to fight it.

You can either use that to run a campaign against that rep, or if Envoy ALPA is that bad, start a decertification process. Why pay union dues if your union doesn't want to defend the contract?