Originally Posted by Inclined plane

Look, no one is wanting to make YouTube videos representing the company besides Swayne. You seem to to misunderstand that fact.

Folks were only complaining about being expressly told (and made to complete online training) about not being able to post any sort of pics or videos while in uniform on any social media. You know, like posting selfies on Facebook.

The original annoyance with Swayne however, was that only a few weeks after being told via HI6 that no one may post any pics or videos in uniform or on company property, on any social media, a newhire starting basic Indoc goes and starts posting company sponsored videos.

Even though the videos are company sponsored, they were a direct contradiction of what the company just said no one was allowed to do. They offered no explanation to the pilot group, and instead double downed on their deadline for all to complete the mandatory social media abstinence training.

This does not mean that Pilots here actually wanted to make videos like Swayne, (aside from perhaps Aviator Chavez) so your plea to understand the company’s “financial risk” “to allow their brand to be represented” by other envoy Pilots besides Swayne, is way off the mark. No one is wanting to. No one is bitter about that. No one cares to. No one can believe you are trying to make a point about that, at least I can’t.

All anyone is currently annoyed about, is that he may potentially be helping management and may be helping recruiting during critical pay negotiations when the company is on record saying healthy class sizes are directly negating the need to increase pay.

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Originally Posted by Firefighterpilo

I appreciate everyone’s input and opinion on here the debates help me have a robust understanding of different view points. I am in no way trying to appear salty i guess I did a bad job but was merely trying to help illustrate where some opinions on this matter may come from. I am only trying to show the possible thought process some may have. I honestly do not care one way or another. I genuinely love seeing people passionate about flying and excited about reaching their goals one reason I still instruct on occasion. I am merely trying to show you the negative reality that you could, but hopefully not, encounter in your long quest of this great career. This way some of you can do better maintaining an appropriate level of optimism then did. I learned the hard way that just wanting and expecting things to go a certain way, seldom ensures it does.

No high horse at all I am just providing a more realistic view of the industry. I absolutely did accept a job at that pay in the early 2000s. My airline management at that time was using bullet points identical to what Envoy recruiters, and these types of youtube videos are preaching to pilot prospects today. I honestly believe management has used the same recruiting propaganda for 40 years to get butts in seats and then recycle them from airline to airline. Back then I was promised fast movement, flow and upgrade in under 2 years with some new FOs holding lines right off IOE. None of which came to fruition in large part to outside forces that no one predicted or expected at the time. The era before the lost decade and the current climate are eerily similar in breadth prediction. In this industry things can and usually do change very rapid and unpredictability.

I was fortunate enough to have the majority of my family in the airline industry for decades going back to when the dc-3 was still doing the heavy lifting. The pilots in my immediate family have flown for PanAm, Eastern, Delta, United and Braniff and all have seen but never forecasted major life altering changes over the years. My grandfather was with Eastern at the peak in the 70s and also during the low of Frank Lorenzo era. He learned a very valuable and hard fought lesson watching scabs and management wipsaws ruin his beloved airline. After enduring the free fall the once stable Eastern Pilots faced while watching their executives make millions left a bad taste in his mouth. He made it a point for me to understand how things were, how they are and how fast they can change. Because of this mentorship by family and friends I felt like I had a grasp on the industries history and how managements predatory tactics with help from the RLA has shape the profession. At the time I felt I had a knowledgable solid foundation of what I could expect and most likely experience in my career based off the same info that is being preached to today’s new pilots. Turns out I was dead wrong and the perfect storm of bad events called “the lost decade” came to fruition. As heart breaking as it was I learned some great life lessons during this time I cherish.

As you so kindly pointed out I accepted the job thinking I knew what I was in for and how nothing would slow down this industry. Even though I tried to maintain reasonable expectations during that particular period of time, just like today, things were humming along and the outlook was rosy. I figured conservatively in that hiring environment I would be at a major 3-4 years after starting regional ioe. But when i was in my 6th year with the regional and still just an FO stuck on reserve with no end in sight (barely missing the dreaded furlough most others endured)I decided to re-evaluate life and make some hard decisions. Myself and many peers in the same boat made the tough choice of changing careers. Therefore voting with our feet.

I have been blessed during all this I now am fortunate to have an amazing career I love where daily I get to make positive and lasting changes in my community that leaves me fulfilled not just doing volunteer work to check a box. I am thankful my second profession provided me with many things flying never did including amazing pay, schedules, pensions, respect in the community, transferable skills and most importantly rock solid job stability. These reasons for me make going back to flying unrealistic at this stage. Fortunately I now have the time and disposable income to fly a few times a week to fulfill my aviation passion.

I did not intend to come across as preaching or in any way condescending. I merely was trying to provide some context about why some of his co workers might have issues with his videos and why these videos can rub some aviators the wrong way. This, just like it was when I was fresh out of college, is a great time to be a pilot. I truly hope this new generation of pilots will not experience the hardship that myself and those before me have experienced. But if history is any lesson pilots should hope for the best and plan on the worse. Careers can be similar to stocks you want to buy low and sale high. I am scared that rookies getting in right now maybe “buying” high and soon to be sold low.

The industry has changed course and been heading up but the top of a hill is usually followed with a steep and unexpected drop. Never forget that. Most of my college friends and colleagues are now on at the majors bidding senior FOs or junior captains. As seen on this thread there are still thousands of qualified experienced pilots on the sidelines waiting for the right changes to make flying viable and economically feasible career for them as daily more return to the cockpit. Myself, if I could make it work financially there are days I would love to go back to the airlines but alas I will wait till I can retire at 50 and then see where the cards fall. Luckily when I get the pilot bug my wife is quick to ground me and remind me how quickly aviation can go bad and how miserable it can be sometimes. More so with family and mortgages added in the mix.

I don’t mind his videos and see them as well produced and informative but I always try to listen to and understand both sides of an argument before forming any belief or opinion on the matter. Sorry about this long diatribe and tangents. In short Envoy and all pilots should always want there to be a shortage of prospects waiting in the pipe. It is one of the main forces that drives the current trend of salary and QOL improvements. Pilot shortages are great for pilots and bad for management. Low pay and bad contracts, the supply dwindles and flights cancel, pilots leave the field for more lucrative careers. Pool then dries up so management must now improve pilot salaries and benefits to attract qualified pilots. The smaller the pool of pilots the harder management must work to improve salaries and QOL to attract pilots away from their competitors. Conversely a large pool allows management to cut and wipesaw pilots against each other till they gut the elure of the profession so much guys leave, the pool shrinks, wash and repeat the cycles of the airline industry the last 70 years. In my experience as long as pilots keep showing up for class (a large pool) management sees no reason to improve wages. If tomorrow envoy stopped filling the training classes (small supply, large demand) it would make you head spin how fast management can find money to increase wages and QOL of their pilot group. One could make an argument that these videos don’t help increase Envoys hiring pool (Large supply)they may not hurt but the videos are definitely not helping the MEC and ALPA with the negotiation leverage that empty classes provide. At its worse and not my opinion one could argue, these videos can be construed as misleading management propaganda that paints a inaccurate or incomplete picture of the career compared to what many have experienced. IE serving the interest of management over labor. That coupled with with the whole society stigma many over 35 have against “social media influencers” clearly can and have created a unwarranted target that frustrated pilots to vent about.

I genuinely love this board and all the different types of personalities, prospective and experience that everyone brings. Fly safe!

Originally Posted by Thedude86

You can call people out for stupid comments, but don’t make it the main point of a much different and bigger problem. It’s 3 people. Go outside. Live a little. People made fun of me all the time in high school. I moved on.

Originally Posted by poopplop

Btw, not once did I say people want to post videos like Swayne. Don't put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane

Not putting words in your mouth. It’s called inference. BTW, I’m not misunderstanding anything.


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Originally Posted by poopplop

Again, we aren't talking about my feelings or your time in high school. We are talking about business. Business decisions and business PR. Your lack of understanding in this subject is a prime example of why I believe Envoy might be justified in limiting pilots and their brand's social media exposure.

I'll ignore the rest of your post..

Originally Posted by poopplop

You must be, because the conclusions you are arriving at using your inference have all been wrong so far. Literally the first sentence in your last post was completely off base, and I explained why.

Originally Posted by Inclined plane

I explained the back history because in my opinion, you are so far off base. It was an attempt at root cause analysis (which went over your head). Your arguments are just so flatly off to me, and I have no idea as to where you are deriving them (as others have pointed out as well).

So, I’d say best of luck. Carry on. I literally feel that I’m being trolled at this point. So I’m disengaging. If you’re not trolling, well let’s just agree to disagree.


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Originally Posted by Inclined plane

I explained the back history because in my opinion, you are so far off base. It was an attempt at root cause analysis (which went over your head). Your arguments are just so flatly off to me, and I have no idea as to where you are deriving them (as others have pointed out as well).

So, I’d say best of luck. Carry on. I literally feel that I’m being trolled at this point. So I’m disengaging. If you’re not trolling, well let’s just agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by poopplop

Your attempt at root cause analysis was wrong. And I explained why. You didn't like that and now you dismiss me as a troll because you have nothing else to offer. So yes, it would be best for you to disengage. Good evening.