Airline Pilot Central Forums - Flow at 9.28 Years

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- Envoy Airlines (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/)

- - Flow at 9.28 Years (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/124499-flow-9-28-years.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by coodrough568 (Post 3099658)

and this is why I advocate for one pay scale across all airframes. Like UPS

That wouldn’t solve the problem necessarily. The problem is different types and a seniority system that doesn't permit type specific furloughs. Take the Delta A220s. Or whatever the junior aircraft type is in any airline. How many of the senior people are rated in them? When you have nine different fleet types and can’t furlough by type, even if it is just random assignment and not stratified by pay scale, the training costs become huge for any downsizing.

The ability to fly the A318, 319, 320, CEOs, NEOs and XLR by everyone at the airline is a huge advantage, as is commonality of parts and maintenance. Strangely, Boeing pioneered the concept with the 757/767 joint type rating but then sort of let it get away from them.

But with a common 320 family type a pilot can fly anything from a 130 pax 3200 nautical mile range aircraft up to a 240 pax 4000 nautical mile aircraft. Savings on training and maintenance logistics are huge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by THKooj (Post 3099552)

Let me guess. You are an economist and have worked in airline management to know this information?

If you’re not, you just discredited your own post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 3099313)

Check your schedule, it has already begun and to a degree greater than I thought it would.

Less cancellations than expected actually.
But this is just rd 1. Rd 2 soon to follow.

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Originally Posted by dera (Post 3099679)

Less cancellations than expected actually.
But this is just rd 1. Rd 2 soon to follow.

Wow, that is surprising considering how much I have already lost. Thank you for the update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyio (Post 3099684)

Wow, that is surprising considering how much I have already lost. Thank you for the update.

I lost one turn. It just depends what you had in your schedule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexAg11 (Post 3099092)

I’ve spent a little time thinking about this flow going away in bankruptcy stuff, and I just don’t know why it would. Getting rid of flow doesn’t provide any cost savings. If it’s gone, then AAG only helps the Spirits and Frontiers as all their WO regional pilots have a mass exodus. I’m pretty sure everyone at a WO walks that stay or spirit tightrope as some point. Or if not one of those carriers then just the highest paying regional. The WOs basically don’t need a recruiting department because of it. And my understanding is that the training over at AA is mostly seamless for the flows, while street hires and military tend to be the ones needing extra, so the training dept tends to like it. (Not that a flow is a better pilot, just the FOM and procedures and familiarity etc)

Not glorifying flow or saying that it’s not gonna be a decade...just speaking to the “flows gone in bankruptcy” point.

Wouldn’t mind hearing some other perspectives.

A bigger problem might not be that flow might be gone in bankruptcy, but that Envoy might be gone in bankruptcy along with one or both of the other WOs. If flying demand remains low that AAG has to reduce its regional footprint, they still have to honor their contracts with Skywest, Republic, and Mesa. They also have to honor scope with APA. One of the easiest ways to accomplish that would be to shut the doors on a WO or two or three.

It won't be long, but I imagine we'll soon see a MEC letter saying that Pedro approached the union saying that AAG needs to consolidate regional flying to just one WO, just like what is happening with Expressjet. If we don't agree to XYZ concessions, then AAG will move all our planes and flying to PSA or PDT. It won't really matter, though. One of the pilot groups will undercut the other two for survival. The others will be given "preferential hiring" at the remaining WO, and the guys who just missed the flow will be invited to start over at the bottom of the survivor's list, just like United hoped the TSA pilots would follow the 145s they flew to bottom of the Expressjet list. No crystal ball, just looking at history repeating itself.

Just throwing out another perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excargodog (Post 3099582)

It isn’t just the load factors (although with cheap enough fares you could probably sell out the back of a dump truck) it’s the model.

Every pilot they have can fly every aircraft they have. A falloff in international or business flying doesn’t require you to train someone currently flying a 787 (and whose previous type was a 727) to fly a 777 before you can train the guy displaced from the 777 to fly a 767 so you can train the guy who was displaced from the 767 to fly an A320 so you can train the guy displaced from the A320 to fly a 737 before you can furlough the first year 737 FO so you can save $7k a month after paying for 4 training events and 6 months of senior pilot down time. And then you have four PO’d senior guys still making 12 year scale.

If they need to furlough, NK and F9 tell their junior FO (who is making maybe $4K a month) hasta la vista and everybody else presses on.

And no captain is gonna need a new type rating to downgrade to FO either.

So yeah, you better believe NK and F9 will be recalling furloughed people and hiring new people long before AA will.

This is spot on. I love THKoolaids response calling airlines sweatshops that actually give their pilot groups a great QoL.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninerdriver (Post 3099663)

...

That is in such bad taste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrion (Post 3099721)

when that conversation goes down at PSA...

”hey guys, in order to stay in business, we’re going to need you to take some conce-“

”yes. We will do it.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrion (Post 3099721)

Yeah no thanks. I would rather leave the industry altogether than start over at the bottom of another regionals list. I also see no reason to give concessions as I dont think any concession we make will be enough to make any real difference other than to briefly stall the inevitable.

Tough times ahead for sure, but if we could just get the three WO's to stand in unity, we may just get through this.