|
Originally Posted by CaseTractor
(Post 2974658)
AA Email. Yes forwarding to commercial email would be as good or better than screenshots.
|
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2974665)
Let me guess, something that happened 5 years ago?
|
Originally Posted by Varsity
(Post 2971959)
I am challenged by my embarrassingly small paycheck.
|
Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer
(Post 2974695)
did you guys get a pay raise recently? Didn’t that help any?
|
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 2973256)
No, there wasn't. There was a pattern of harassment of union officials by the company. There was taking a vacation and them not allowing a vacation slide, PO, PVD, PE or anything else to cover the few days that weren't covered by vacation time.
Rule #2 of the company says not to be away from work without providing notice. Notice was provided in person that I would not be there the days that were not covered. Therefore the rule was not violated. Rule #2 also says three or more missed assignments is grounds for termination. While the Chief Pilots office could not tell me what the punishment would be for a missed assignment, (not plural since he expected - as I did - that the block of days would be treated as one event) they were fully aware I wouldn't be there those days. The company policy has steps of discipline. I was fully prepared for the appropriate discipline to keep my family commitment. Between work and the rush of union work, the bankruptcy and CBA negotiations that year, I missed almost every family event of the year. That vacation was also a family reunion. Missing it was not an option if staying married was important. The company decided to record the single block of missed assignments as separate events each day, rather than as a single event for the block of days which is how they do sick time, missed blocks of 4 day trips and so on. In my case, they recorded them separately and used Rule #2 saying I had three or more consecutive MA's. They then violated their progressive discipline policy again and said take a CDD or termination. With a family to feed on the meager Eagle wages, I took the CDD for one year. I'm sure being a commuter they expected me to have a MA within the year. Didn't happen. I could list the many times they removed me from flying to "investigate" violations that they could have resolved with a phone call, or a stop by the CP office. Nope, they'd rather put the PW (paid withheld from service - in other words suspended from flight duty) on your record many times to help their fabricated cases later. They even left one in my file after I gave them documentation proving them wrong, including AA D2 records showing I arrived ready for duty well in advance of a report time. Eagle/Envoy has fired 4 different union MEC members. One was fired 7 times. Two were fired two times (includes me) and one was fired once. During the heated contract negotiations of 2013-2015 there were two of the seven MEC members fired. Coincidentally these were the two MEC reps who most actively fought for the pilots and against company abuses. It was still a good company. It still is today. The few executives and managers who take things personally are the biggest problem there. The coworkers were and are some of the best aviators and friends I have ever known. The camaraderie and friendships I made there have endured to this day. I still have many friends there, many in management (though they don't publicly admit it) and many who like myself have moved on to better jobs. MEGAFUPM, I hope this answered your questions. If not feel free to PM me. There has never been a policy when a block of MA's are considered a single event. Especially when they are just before your scheduled vacation block. And even more so after posting pictures from Disney during those missed days. And you're also skipping the last part of the story. |
To me it's pretty clear that you shouldn't just accept missed assignments and it's also pretty clear that RI got targetted by management for being an obstacle to them through his union activities.
Unfortunately because of the way arbitration works, it is easy and relatively risk free in theory for an ENY manager to target or direct the targetting of a particular pilot and it will never come up in discovery, which is informal at best when it does happen. I've seen this myself with how the company responded to another pilot who likes to complain excessively (imo) about hotels. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975280)
This isn't entirely accurate, is it?
There has never been a policy when a block of MA's are considered a single event. Especially when they are just before your scheduled vacation block. And even more so after posting pictures from Disney during those missed days. And you're also skipping the last part of the story. I have copies of the reports submitted by the CP office (which the company withheld and I got after the arbitration) They referred to the missed assignment, not missed assignments. We expected it to be treated the same as a block of sick days. One event for several days. Same as when you miss on a 4 day trip, recorded as one event of multiple days. When you tell the company put me out sick the next 3 days, it’s one event. When we had snow or WX events they didn’t record MA’s every day, they recorded 1 MA for the block of days. Then later the CP would convert them to commuter policy. The rule on MA is intended that if you had 4 trips in a month, if you MA’d three consecutive you’d have been out over three weeks. It was never meant for three consecutive days. The purpose (family reunion) was never in dispute, they were told exactly what the time was for at the same time they were told the block of days I couldn’t be there. Never tried to hide I was at a family reunion at Disney, told them that at the same time I told them I wouldn’t be there. That was never contested at all. Read rule #2. It does not say not to be away without permission. It says not to be away without notice; notice had been given. Their words were that’s just a technicality. like I said, was totally prepared for a step letter, double secret probation, make-up work... some type of punishment. Nobody expected them to record each day individually and attempt to discharge. That was a first as far as ALPA could find. what was the last part you say I’m skipping? They did a CDD, I signed it. Or that they fired me twice more over the next year and a half in between lots of attempts to make life miserable. Should have fought the CDD. Worst legal advice ever. Picketing them publicly at LGA probably didn’t help, but it what my pilots wanted to do. In any event it’s water under the bridge and I landed in a much better place. So it actually worked out. Envoy is still a good job, but the flow is losing value daily. They need to fix the work rules and the pay. |
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2975381)
To me it's pretty clear that you shouldn't just accept missed assignments and it's also pretty clear that RI got targetted by management for being an obstacle to them through his union activities.
Unfortunately because of the way arbitration works, it is easy and relatively risk free in theory for an ENY manager to target or direct the targetting of a particular pilot and it will never come up in discovery, which is informal at best when it does happen. I've seen this myself with how the company responded to another pilot who likes to complain excessively (imo) about hotels. stuff like awards and company recognition were removed from my personnel file. I have copies and a letter from the CP who issued the awards and recognitions that he had placed them into the P-file. Yet they vanished by arbitration time when they claimed I was a bad employee. We asked for all documentation related to the incident. They withheld the CP reports. I only got them after both CP’s left Envoy and emailed me the reports they filed. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975280)
This isn't entirely accurate, is it?
There has never been a policy when a block of MA's are considered a single event....... Nobody was fired, even though it was more than 3 consecutive MA, nobody given CDD’s or anything more than the corresponding level of punishment based on the company discipline manual. Well, until me.... |
What’s a CDD
|
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2975381)
To me it's pretty clear that you shouldn't just accept missed assignments and it's also pretty clear that RI got targetted by management for being an obstacle to them through his union activities.
Unfortunately because of the way arbitration works, it is easy and relatively risk free in theory for an ENY manager to target or direct the targetting of a particular pilot and it will never come up in discovery, which is informal at best when it does happen. I've seen this myself with how the company responded to another pilot who likes to complain excessively (imo) about hotels. Another reason to fight for increased flow. The sooner you are out the sooner you are away from predatory practices. |
Originally Posted by oldrebel
(Post 2975433)
What’s a CDD
|
Originally Posted by oldrebel
(Post 2975433)
What’s a CDD
choice 1 - fired choice 2 - sign, agreeing to be fired if you break any rules while the letter is in effect, 1 year is standard. in their discipline manual it comes after C&C, step 1, step 2.... none of which I had. Im sure they figured with NY closing and me commuting that they’d get me on another MA. Never happened. |
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2975462)
continuous duty overnight
|
You’re dealing with an unethical management team. A few are genuinely good guys.
The staffing problems would vanish if they just treated their employees better. They’re positioned to be the lead regional in the industry. Instead they harass, vilify and abuse their staff. aviation is a small world and word gets out. Everybody knows Envoy has a toxic relationship with its pilots compared to other carriers. Fix the reserve rules, fix the order of assignments, stop making lineholders reserve with endless reassignment. For Gods sake learn to schedule and get rid of airport ready reserve. Pay a minimum value for a day away from family. Lost weekends and 12 hour four day trips are just outright wrong and abusive. If they absolutely must have it, make it pay a good premium. Stop abusing people just just because you can. #StopAbuse the flip side is that the average line guy probably has zero idea of the really stupid stuff pilots do and get in trouble for. I was amazed at some of the stuff I defended guys for. The sad part is, I never lost one... except my own...... |
Originally Posted by pitchattitude
(Post 2975486)
That would be a CDO and contextually doesn’t fit the conversation either.
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 2975487)
The staffing problems would vanish if they just treated their employees better. They’re positioned to be the lead regional in the industry. Instead they harass, vilify and abuse their staff.
Amen dude. Can't believe the atmosphere of disrespect. I don't know if my experience is representative, but 99.9% of guys I've encountered on the line genuinely want to complete the mission and do what we can for the passengers & the operation. Meanwhile management poops on us and looks to erode what little the market has forced them to give. |
Originally Posted by NoValueAviator
(Post 2975556)
Amen dude. Can't believe the atmosphere of disrespect. I don't know if my experience is representative, but 99.9% of guys I've encountered on the line genuinely want to complete the mission and do what we can for the passengers & the operation. Meanwhile management poops on us and looks to erode what little the market has forced them to give.
|
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 2975384)
yes, it’s accurate.
what was the last part you say I’m skipping? They did a CDD, I signed it. Or that they fired me twice more over the next year and a half in between lots of attempts to make life miserable. Should have fought the CDD. Worst legal advice ever. Picketing them publicly at LGA probably didn’t help, but it what my pilots wanted to do. . |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975618)
You missed the part why you were terminated. It wasn't the MA. But if that's all you want to say, we can leave it at that.
|
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 2975487)
You’re dealing with an unethical management team. A few are genuinely good guys.
The staffing problems would vanish if they just treated their employees better. They’re positioned to be the lead regional in the industry. Instead they harass, vilify and abuse their staff. aviation is a small world and word gets out. Everybody knows Envoy has a toxic relationship with its pilots compared to other carriers. Fix the reserve rules, fix the order of assignments, stop making lineholders reserve with endless reassignment. For Gods sake learn to schedule and get rid of airport ready reserve. Pay a minimum value for a day away from family. Lost weekends and 12 hour four day trips are just outright wrong and abusive. If they absolutely must have it, make it pay a good premium. Stop abusing people just just because you can. #StopAbuse the flip side is that the average line guy probably has zero idea of the really stupid stuff pilots do and get in trouble for. I was amazed at some of the stuff I defended guys for. The sad part is, I never lost one... except my own...... |
Originally Posted by rld1k
(Post 2975664)
You're in the union and calling out a guy who was targeted by management for being an effective union rep. Your priorities seem out of whack
|
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975672)
I'm not calling him out, I just said he missed out the important part from his post. And we're leaving it at that if he doesn't want to disclose the rest. This was all 3-5 years ago anyway, so it's not important any more.
In my experience having done contract compliance, it never ends well when someone is constantly trying to sharpshoot with the contract, eventually you’re going to run out of accuracy. |
Originally Posted by rld1k
(Post 2975664)
You're in the union and calling out a guy who was targeted by management for being an effective union rep. Your priorities seem out of whack
Way out of whack! |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975618)
You missed the part why you were terminated. It wasn't the MA. But if that's all you want to say, we can leave it at that.
They expected me to have a commuting MA during the CDD period. Never happened. Then before the CDD expired they did terminate for four cases of alleged sick time abuse 11 months after the CDD. I arrived with medical records, they said they don’t need to see the medical records, you’re fired. I was back 1.5 months later. Administrative law judge said it was the most egregious termination he’d seen in 22 years. 1 was an ear infection. One was bronchitis. Another was pneumonia. The fourth one I didn’t go see the doctor. They refused to even look at the medical records. How effed up is that? 6 months after that one they discharged again over a miscommunication. Tried to clarify and their response was we aren’t here for an explanation, we are here to discharge you. It was a typo of the effective date of a resignation from union position. They said I lied. They also said I lied about involvement in Charlie Bucket. At the very most it was a miscommunication, but they wouldn’t listen. Never trust your job to an arbiter. Never stick your neck out at Envoy to fight for other pilots. You will get targeted, harassed and repeatedly fired. That is the the extremely short version cut down to just the basics. not sure what you’ve been told, but I’d be happy to let you read the paperwork. Decide for yourself. EVERY employer that interviewed me and took the time and read the paperwork offered me the job I was there for. Every single one. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975672)
I'm not calling him out, I just said he missed out the important part from his post. And we're leaving it at that if he doesn't want to disclose the rest. This was all 3-5 years ago anyway, so it's not important any more.
not important? You’re working with a management team with a well established track record of targeting and harassing union officials who don’t let them steam roll the pilots. They fired one Rep 7 times they fired another twice they fired me twice they fired a fourth once The message is clear. |
Originally Posted by Cujo665
(Post 2975824)
probably because I was not terminated for the MA vacation mess. The whole story takes about 300 typed pages.
They expected me to have a commuting MA during the CDD period. Never happened. Then before the CDD expired they did terminate for four cases of alleged sick time abuse 11 months after the CDD. I arrived with medical records, they said they don’t need to see the medical records, you’re fired. I was back 1.5 months later. Administrative law judge said it was the most egregious termination he’d seen in 22 years. 1 was an ear infection. One was bronchitis. Another was pneumonia. The fourth one I didn’t go see the doctor. They refused to even look at the medical records. How effed up is that? 6 months after that one they discharged again over a miscommunication. Tried to clarify and their response was we aren’t here for an explanation, we are here to discharge you. It was a typo of the effective date of a resignation from union position. They said I lied. They also said I lied about involvement in Charlie Bucket. At the very most it was a miscommunication, but they wouldn’t listen. Never trust your job to an arbiter. Never stick your neck out at Envoy to fight for other pilots. You will get targeted, harassed and repeatedly fired. That is the the extremely short version cut down to just the basics. not sure what you’ve been told, but I’d be happy to let you read the paperwork. Decide for yourself. EVERY employer that interviewed me and took the time and read the paperwork offered me the job I was there for. Every single one. Let's just leave it at that, no point to wash old dirty laundry in public. Things were very different back then. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975863)
Like I said, lots more to the story than what you were originally saying.
Let's just leave it at that, no point to wash old dirty laundry in public. Things were very different back then. And you think they’re different now at any of the WO? All 3 are crap holes. PSA’s dirty laundry just isn’t on APC. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975863)
Like I said, lots more to the story than what you were originally saying.
Let's just leave it at that, no point to wash old dirty laundry in public. Things were very different back then. What management got away with, or rather tried to get away with back than was nothing short of horrible. If I have to take a side in this fight, it will be with the guy who had a proven track record of helping pilots out and fighting for them. I hope you do the same in your new role. |
Like I said before, we need real men in our Union, not boys that live in their parents basement/garage, that are battling acne.
|
Originally Posted by tommy2times
(Post 2975960)
Like I said before, we need real men in our Union, not boys that live in their parents basement/garage, that are battling acne.
|
Originally Posted by MqWhistleblower
(Post 2975966)
Is Karim still an union rep? Asking for a friend
Fillerfiller. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975972)
No.
Fillerfiller. |
Originally Posted by AV8R72
(Post 2976024)
oh , Karim...the guy whose birthday just so happened to fall on the day the last vacancy closed....funny how that works
|
For all those down on the future of AAG, take some time to take a look at the announcements made today re new international flying from Seattle and Alaska joining Oneworld. It sounds like Vasu is willing to make some unexpected moves and go toe to toe with the competition. (The latest episode of the "Tell Me Why" podcast is a good interview with Vasu about these moves; available in Apple Podcasts, etc.)
If y'all still feel compelled to jump ship for the yellow bus or animal tails, go ahead, I guess. |
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2976062)
That was just a coincidence. Really.
|
Originally Posted by uavking
(Post 2976073)
For all those down on the future of AAG, take some time to take a look at the announcements made today re new international flying from Seattle and Alaska joining Oneworld. It sounds like Vasu is willing to make some unexpected moves and go toe to toe with the competition. (The latest episode of the "Tell Me Why" podcast is a good interview with Vasu about these moves; available in Apple Podcasts, etc.)
If y'all still feel compelled to jump ship for the yellow bus or animal tails, go ahead, I guess. |
Originally Posted by uavking
(Post 2976073)
For all those down on the future of AAG, take some time to take a look at the announcements made today re new international flying from Seattle and Alaska joining Oneworld. It sounds like Vasu is willing to make some unexpected moves and go toe to toe with the competition. (The latest episode of the "Tell Me Why" podcast is a good interview with Vasu about these moves; available in Apple Podcasts, etc.)
If y'all still feel compelled to jump ship for the yellow bus or animal tails, go ahead, I guess. MF! Now we are never getting Alaska out of the G terminal in ORD :( |
Originally Posted by Cyio
(Post 2976089)
When you say "latest" what are you actually referring too? When I looked it up the most recent was in December of 2019 and had the "Points Guy" as the main feature. I am new to podcasts in general though so I fully admit I may be missing something.
|
Originally Posted by dera
(Post 2975863)
Like I said, lots more to the story than what you were originally saying.
Let's just leave it at that, no point to wash old dirty laundry in public. Things were very different back then. I don’t mind. They can’t hurt me or my family anymore. It only exposes how totally unethical this management team is. Pilots should know who they’re working for. if telling the story and history helps guys not get screwed by these managers, then that’s a good thing. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:12 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands