Funny how you guys moan about Team Tony, but in reality, thanks to him there is "movement" now because of the 824 and MAYBE the protected pilots. Yes, in the end he was looking only for himself similar to the Cuj of today with his NY antics....

Maybe its the NY water after all.......


Good Luck!

Im not one of those who complains about "Team Tony". Notice I didn't even use that term. He did accomplish quite a bit for this pilot group, including the flow as you mentioned. I even dare say he accomplished more than the regime in power during 2013/2014.

I'm speaking specifically in regards to the 2012 contract. It was a horrible contract and it was signed with the wrong company. As MEC members they knew better than most how imminent a merger was and should have advised this pilot group to vote accordingly. They didn't.

No, it never said which ones or how many. Tom Horton used the award as a wedge to get what he wanted. AAG has way more Ejet options out there awarded than can ever be executed. To say those hulls were definately coming here is just simply not accurate.

The order for them couldn't even be placed while in bankruptcy without getting UCC permission. RAH ordering them themselves allowed AMR/AAG to get delivery and into operation faster.

"could" those have gone to EagleVoy.... probably, but we'll never really know. Like the CR9's... could they have gone to EagleVoy; sure but it made more sense to use them to beat us down with and then give them to PSA anyway.

Like I said, there are enough options for hulls around that those 47 birds aren't an issue anyway for anybody watching the bigger picture. The vendors (and us) can't execute all the options that AAG spread around. AAG just has to sit back and watch which regional will have the pilots to fly the extra planes. Whomever that is, will get their options executed.

There's no reason to get upset with any RAH pilot. There's more hulls available out there from the paper options than can possibly be converted into hulls on the ramps.

The delay is because there were other things to negotiate first. Then when it did come, it was not something that would pass and MEC vote, let alone a pilot vote. It got sent back with a list of must haves and progress is being made. If we get an agreement that is a gain for our pilots we'll consider it.

If you have other information, I'd like to hear it since I was there in the room when it all happened and didn't see any GV drivers there.

Then he might have been there after all, considering he is likely not a GV driver. Did you happen to spot any folks clad in bath robes and slippers typing frantically on their laptop?

It's critical to note that this litmus can change drastically over a fairly short period of time. 12-18 months from now despite Envoy's present staffing situation or any efforts Envoy management makes to maintain that, Envoy could be in no different a position that AAG regional X is in right now. I don't think Parker is going to commit anything to anyone beyond that timeframe and thus Envoy management will have limited ability to feather your nest in other than temporary offerings.

The moves and language surrounding recent Envoy candy canes supports that the present Christmas at Envoy may only be a seasonal event and no single AAG regional will have a permanent present under the tree, but must periodically share the presents of upgrades, flow and compensation depending on their willingness to agree not to pi$$ on Santa's lap and be the one to have the elves necessary at the time.

I see a lot of future shuffling of resources among carriers and consolidation of the in-house carriers so that AAG regional pilots will forever be chasing a mythical man with a white beard.

You mean, besides Cujo himself?

Meanwhile back in the world, the Chinese locomotive is wheezing. Europe, Latin America and Australia are sneezing, as the FED contemplates a rate hike. All those intern'l AAG pax seats and who will fill them ?

So that is your argument? Things can change. In that case, I'd like to offer another ridiculous argument that the physical laws governing lift may also cease to exist and THEN WE'LL ALL BE OUT OF A JOB! Of course things can change. That would be the case at any carrier in any situation.


Given that fact that the title of this threat is about 100% of the newhires at AA will come from the wholly owned carriers. The point of Cujo's arguments is that as it becomes harder to attract pilots to envoy, the company will use new equipment (growth) and flow (movement and long term career progression) as an incentive to attract new blood to their regional carriers. AA can offer whatever it needs to in order to keep the newhires coming that the likes of SKW, RAH, XJet etc cannot.

So yes, things can change but I think they will only change for the better for a regional carriers whose parent company has everything to gain by changing things in their favor. The CEO of that company having already stated that they will do just that, helps as well. In fact, in his words, "The quickest way to get to AA will be through envoy." While I will concede that they could better implement this program, the fact remains that envoy have consistently flowed envoy pilots over to AA for the last few years. In the last 24 months, that flow has gone from 20+ year envoy pilots, to currently at 16 year pilots, with it speculated to be at 12 years by the end of next year. If this trend continues, one can easily calculate how long it will take for a new hire today to flow. I don't agree with the current projections by the Director of Flight Ops to be at 6 years, I do believe that if he really wants that to be the case, he can MAKE that happen. (That is where being wholly owned will help, if they need to, they can flow more pilots to make it more of an incentive)

Your comprehension skills appear marginal. I have no clue where you think I said anything remotely implying you'll al be out of a job. If you were also a more attentive student to history both in the context of this industry and at AAG, you'd see a pattern.

Since you've demonstrated poor ability in both areas, I'm sure my next points will sail over you as well.

But however, if other legacies see that strategy succeeding, you can be sure they'll neuter it with similar deals of their own. IF poaching becomes successful and a threat, it will be stopped. Considering that flow or no flow, there are simply a fraction of the necessary regional new-hires available from 'street' sources, without the ability to poach, all this strategy will do is turn Envoy into an airline version of the mythical Kookamora bird (a bird that flies in tighter and tighter circles until it flies up its own a$$ and disappears).

Envoy cannot sustain itself by flowing itself into non-existence.

Nice sales pitch, BTW. You'll certainly get a thumbs up from the New York Envoy ice cream vendor here. I believe this weeks flavor is Flow-thru 'n Cream ..........or was it RJ Mocha Almond ? :rolleyes: For all these grandiose beliefs to come to fruition, Envoy will need a steady 30+ pilots not just this month, but each and every month for years. Considering the almost certain shutdown of poaching should that become a threat and the severe absence of necessary pilots in the street-hire pipeline for regionals, it will simply become a situation of jockying assets, plugging holes and schmoozing chumps. AAG wants to run through the 824 by a set time and is doing what they need to now, among other things. Once that arbitration issue is no longer applicable, the (and remember this phrase) "landscape will change". ;)