He clearly said they would IF the flow through begins poaching pilots from their feed and harming their operation. So far this is not the case, in fact the flow isn't even bringing enough guys to Envoy to support 2.5/6. Why would United and Delta et al adopt something that has shown no success?

Reading is FUNdamental.

His point is, and has been all along, that the AA flow program won't work because once it does, it will be countered by Delta and United. My point is that the AA flow working, the Delta retention program, and United giving flying to quality regionals, are not mutually exclusive. They can all work simultaneously, and currently are.

A recent Union conference call stated that they ran the numbers on managements 2.5/6 claim and they found that the numbers work if Envoy averages 15 new hires per month. This info was stated by the DFW Reps who are far from in management's corner. Considering Envoy was able to double that last month, I'd say the flow is working just fine.


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Noooo..........my point was and has been all along that IF AA's flow program becomes successful AND it threatens the other legacies regionals and thus feed, they will counter with measures to protect that feed, including similar retention programs like flow-thru's. That threat could involve poaching their present pilots thus weakening their regional networks or sopping up what little new-hires are available. FIRST though, I think they need to see a concern from both their end and demonstration that AA's flow program(s) are responsible.

So far, neither litmus has occurred. Envoy supposedly got 25 or so pilots recently, but can they do that month after month for a year or so ? Are they stripping large numbers of regional pilots from UAL or DAL regionals ?

So far no, and no.


I understand your intoxication with recent short-term numbers as you've been doing Envoy management Kool-Aid shooters for several years now and are hooked, but I think you're counting your chickens WAY too early. Besides, even with the above recent numbers that haven't proven themselves long-term, it is NOT directly effecting either United's or Delta's regional ops.

Do have any evidence to suggest that this is the route they will go? Because I have shown evidence that this is not the way they are meeting the staffing challenges.

If you do not have evidence and are merely speculating, would you care to give an estimate as to when Delta and United will have a flow?





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There is really no need for this type of discourse. If you are interested in a dealing with the facts, that's cool, we can have a discussion. If you are interested in snark and mindless blather, then I am sorry I engaged you in another discussion.


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There is really NO way of telling if the flow at envoy is currently working. Those that flowed or currently are flowing are due to the fact that they were part of the flow agreement Letter3 or the 824's award agreement.

Once the 824 group is gone, we shall see if it really works. Those next in line will be in for a shock.....

Good Luck!

Snark and mindless blather is pretty much eaglefly's (thrustlever's) job description. Welcome to the ever growing list of people who are sorry they ever had to read anything he ever said.

I disagree. His points are usually well articulated. There was a point in time where I agreed with a lot of what he said. Lately, he seems out of touch with what's going on at the FFD carriers and deserves to be refuted.


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Envoy -----> Endeavor....should I do it? Live in NY, been at envoy just under 2 years. Help

I would stick it out through the end of the year and see if the satellite base thing pans out. It will also give you time to gauge how hiring is going here at Envoy. Last class had 20.