New Envoy Information
#241
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 238
It's likely I could never fly an airplane as good as you guys. Envoy pilots are superior in every way. Go ahead, hang out there at Envoy and wait for your number to be called. It might work as planned, then again, it might not. If it doesn't, I fully expect you to still be RAH-RAH Envoy.
#242
It's likely I could never fly an airplane as good as you guys. Envoy pilots are superior in every way. Go ahead, hang out there at Envoy and wait for your number to be called. It might work as planned, then again, it might not. If it doesn't, I fully expect you to still be RAH-RAH Envoy.
#243
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 10
Is there any useful information on this thread? It seems to be just name calling and bickering back and forth. It doesn't seem like anyone has any fact based information. You go from extremes of 2.5/6 yr to it's never going to happen and the company is going to fold. I realize it is naive of me to find some accurate information and a forum, but it would be nice.
#244
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Is there any useful information on this thread? It seems to be just name calling and bickering back and forth. It doesn't seem like anyone has any fact based information. You go from extremes of 2.5/6 yr to it's never going to happen and the company is going to fold. I realize it is naive of me to find some accurate information and a forum, but it would be nice.
IF Envoy does have new hire today flow in 6 years it will likely be mostly due to what will be the new norm in 6 years, not some super special carve out for former Eagle guys.
There's more hireing in the next 6 years than the previous 15, so even a 15 year Envoy veteran cant tell you because he was a Cfi the last time hireing was like this.
#245
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
Is there any useful information on this thread? It seems to be just name calling and bickering back and forth. It doesn't seem like anyone has any fact based information. You go from extremes of 2.5/6 yr to it's never going to happen and the company is going to fold. I realize it is naive of me to find some accurate information and a forum, but it would be nice.
It's the same as every other regional, with the exception that we seem to be more in flux at this time.
As of this moment:
Upgrades are slow and around 8 years. Projections are for it to drop significantly over the next few years. Will it drop to 2.5 years? Who the hell knows... That's all corporate propaganda at this time, but the upgrades will happen thanks to the flow and attrition.
Will ENY implode? No. If a situation arises that ENY is in dire trouble I have a feeling that the entire regional industry will be taking the same hit. We're not going anywhere.
Our shrinkage has slowed, rumors have it that there may actually be some extra re-capture of flying above and beyond what we've been expecting, but that's just a rumor. Like corporate propaganda, don't believe it until it happens.
Now that some of the other "OMG six weeks to captain!" regionals have slowed, IMO ENY is the place to get the foot in the door NOW. Not in a year or two when things really take off, then it's too late. IF they hire, flow and upgrade they way they predicted it's gonna be a nice ride for a few years.
There's plenty of haters on this board that love to hear themselves talk about the sky falling, but right now the things I've mentioned are in motion. While anything is possible and a giant meteor from outer space with space-suited terrorists and too-big-to-fail bankers riding it waving turbans and cowboy hats wanting to destroy both economy, our freedomz and planet by pile-driving into the Earth, life is full of risks. Make a choice, hope for the best and plan for the worst.
The one thing I will say is that our flow should not be a career making decision. Don't come here expecting to flow, always be looking for the next step up. One can certainly take advantage of the tangential effects of the flow while here, though - quick rise in seniority, hopefully approach an upgrade quickly and the associated benefits of better schedules with the rise in relative seniority.
#246
824 Flow Through
x Upon delivery of the first EMB-175 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 30 per month (subject to the 50%), shall go to Envoy pilots until a total of 824 Envoy pilots have flowed through to AA.
“Protected Pilots” Hired By Envoy On or Before October 11, 2011
x Upon delivery of the 40th EMB-175 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 25 per month (subject to the 50%), shall go to such Envoy pilots, until the next pilot to be offered a flow through opportunity was hired after October 11, 2011.
Pilots Hired By Envoy After October 11, 2011
x At the point in time when the first pilot hired after October 11, 2011 is offered a flow through opportunity, if AA is hiring pilots, 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month (subject to the 35%), shall go to Envoy pilots.
Pilots Hired After DOS
x The lesser of (a) 25% of all AA new hire training slots in that calendar year, or (b) five new hire training slots (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the Envoy master seniority list) times (“x”) the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which AA actually hired pilots, shall go to Envoy pilots.
x Upon delivery of the first EMB-175 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 30 per month (subject to the 50%), shall go to Envoy pilots until a total of 824 Envoy pilots have flowed through to AA.
“Protected Pilots” Hired By Envoy On or Before October 11, 2011
x Upon delivery of the 40th EMB-175 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 25 per month (subject to the 50%), shall go to such Envoy pilots, until the next pilot to be offered a flow through opportunity was hired after October 11, 2011.
Pilots Hired By Envoy After October 11, 2011
x At the point in time when the first pilot hired after October 11, 2011 is offered a flow through opportunity, if AA is hiring pilots, 35% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 15 per month (subject to the 35%), shall go to Envoy pilots.
Pilots Hired After DOS
x The lesser of (a) 25% of all AA new hire training slots in that calendar year, or (b) five new hire training slots (increased by one for every 125 pilots above the base number of 480 on the Envoy master seniority list) times (“x”) the number of calendar months in that calendar year in which AA actually hired pilots, shall go to Envoy pilots.
Bankruptcy in 12-2011 with nobody on the list until 11-2012
And it's under roughly 200 since then.
It will go fast after they get through the 2011 hires. Even at 35% of each class there aren't a lot of guys in front of somebody getting hired now.
Kinda like getting hired at PSA just before they got more planes. A long upgrade went down to almost nothing.
#247
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 46
The lions share of the pilots were hired before 10-11-2011
Bankruptcy in 12-2011 with nobody on the list until 11-2012
And it's under roughly 200 since then.
It will go fast after they get through the 2011 hires. Even at 35% of each class there aren't a lot of guys in front of somebody getting hired now.
Kinda like getting hired at PSA just before they got more planes. A long upgrade went down to almost nothing.
Bankruptcy in 12-2011 with nobody on the list until 11-2012
And it's under roughly 200 since then.
It will go fast after they get through the 2011 hires. Even at 35% of each class there aren't a lot of guys in front of somebody getting hired now.
Kinda like getting hired at PSA just before they got more planes. A long upgrade went down to almost nothing.
Couple that with the massive amount of retirements over the next decade and voila. There's your 2.5/6. I'm sure we would all like to turn back the clocks, but as I've said before. Unless somebody discovers the fountain of youth, it's a great time to be an Envoy pilot right now.
#248
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along. When they came up with these projections that show a 2.5 year upgrade and s 6 year flow, it wasn't just out of thin air. There's actually math behind it and a rational explanation of the numbers.
Couple that with the massive amount of retirements over the next decade and voila. There's your 2.5/6. I'm sure we would all like to turn back the clocks, but as I've said before. Unless somebody discovers the fountain of youth, it's a great time to be an Envoy pilot right now.
Couple that with the massive amount of retirements over the next decade and voila. There's your 2.5/6. I'm sure we would all like to turn back the clocks, but as I've said before. Unless somebody discovers the fountain of youth, it's a great time to be an Envoy pilot right now.
#249
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 439
I think it's the "and voila" part that pilots question. The reality is that 2.5/6 would be for a small number of pilots after shrinkage and before re-growth. You have been claiming this window has been open for what will soon be a year. I am guessing for those few dozen pilots it's now 1.5/5 huh?
Question for you...In order for new applicants to trust the 2.5/6, do you want to wait another 2 years and re-visit the topic? Or do you want AAG to guarantee that said pilot will upgrade in 2.5 and be at AA in 6 years? Because that sort of guarantee is not gonna happen.
If you want to talk about reality, then the reality is envoy is done shrinking and likely getting back more flying. The reality is that 50% of classes at AA will be made up of envoy pilots for at least the next 5 years. The reality is that current attrition is not only from a very substantial amount of flows, but also normal attrition.
So...will 2.5/6 happen? I'm extremely confident it will, but won't guarantee it.
#250
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 610
Nobody is claiming "voila" as you say (except for Cujo664, but that's another story). The 2.5/6 came out less than 6 months ago, so I would hardly claim 1.5/5 anytime soon.
Question for you...In order for new applicants to trust the 2.5/6, do you want to wait another 2 years and re-visit the topic? Or do you want AAG to guarantee that said pilot will upgrade in 2.5 and be at AA in 6 years? Because that sort of guarantee is not gonna happen.
If you want to talk about reality, then the reality is envoy is done shrinking and likely getting back more flying. The reality is that 50% of classes at AA will be made up of envoy pilots for at least the next 5 years. The reality is that current attrition is not only from a very substantial amount of flows, but also normal attrition.
So...will 2.5/6 happen? I'm extremely confident it will, but won't guarantee it.
Question for you...In order for new applicants to trust the 2.5/6, do you want to wait another 2 years and re-visit the topic? Or do you want AAG to guarantee that said pilot will upgrade in 2.5 and be at AA in 6 years? Because that sort of guarantee is not gonna happen.
If you want to talk about reality, then the reality is envoy is done shrinking and likely getting back more flying. The reality is that 50% of classes at AA will be made up of envoy pilots for at least the next 5 years. The reality is that current attrition is not only from a very substantial amount of flows, but also normal attrition.
So...will 2.5/6 happen? I'm extremely confident it will, but won't guarantee it.
I truely think that any young Cfi going to a jet regional that operates or has plans to operate a 50+ seat jet will have a stable furture for the next 6 years and won't see any real curve balls.
I think your company will be just fine, and will be just as good a choice as any other. The 2.5/6 is an aggressive marketing tool like the 1k pilots PSA needs. Cujo sounds like the washed up bum at a race track that just knows which horse to bet on even though his track record is terrable, and he's not going to place any bets himself.
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