Envoy Info II
01-02-2017 | 06:20 AM
#461
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
I'm an envoy pilot and have an honest question for all those on here constantly bashing and complaining. What specifically is "constantly" being violated in the contract? Or is it just the LTFO everyone complains about or JM?
The reason I ask is because for the years I've been here, which has been through the whole bankruptcy, merger, multiple TAs, etc, I honestly have not personally had the contract violated towards me except maybe 2 times and both of which I was able to resolve quite simply.
I understand the hard feelings going back to the TAs and base closures and all that; it affected me just as much as anyone here but at this point going forward I really am not seeing where the contract is being trashed constantly as some say. That's by no means saying it's wonderful and great and I know JM are happening and things could most certainly be much better but I honestly don't see all the things that many complain on here about.
I'm sure I'll get lit up for this by some on here but it's really an honest question and observation.
The reason I ask is because for the years I've been here, which has been through the whole bankruptcy, merger, multiple TAs, etc, I honestly have not personally had the contract violated towards me except maybe 2 times and both of which I was able to resolve quite simply.
I understand the hard feelings going back to the TAs and base closures and all that; it affected me just as much as anyone here but at this point going forward I really am not seeing where the contract is being trashed constantly as some say. That's by no means saying it's wonderful and great and I know JM are happening and things could most certainly be much better but I honestly don't see all the things that many complain on here about.
I'm sure I'll get lit up for this by some on here but it's really an honest question and observation.
01-02-2017 | 06:38 AM
#462
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 236
Likes: 13
From: pj's and coffee
The extent to which our current mismanagement team violates the contract would be funny if it wasn't so sad. Even something that is written in black and white, with there being no way to misinterpret it, is violated. Junior man, reserve turnback, LTFO, the list goes on....
If the company asks/tells you to do something that's a blatant violation of the contract, can't you just tell them to pound sand and count on the contract and the union to back you up and protect your job?
Perhaps that's easier said than done. But what's the point of a contract if it can be violated by one party at will and you can't use it to protect yourself?
01-02-2017 | 06:45 AM
#463
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Can't help but ask as a guy doing lots of research on airline life...
If the company asks/tells you to do something that's a blatant violation of the contract, can't you just tell them to pound sand and count on the contract and the union to back you up and protect your job?
Perhaps that's easier said than done. But what's the point of a contract if it can be violated by one party at will and you can't use it to protect yourself?
If the company asks/tells you to do something that's a blatant violation of the contract, can't you just tell them to pound sand and count on the contract and the union to back you up and protect your job?
Perhaps that's easier said than done. But what's the point of a contract if it can be violated by one party at will and you can't use it to protect yourself?
If it is something that violates FARs, that's a totally different story.
01-02-2017 | 06:46 AM
#464
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Can't help but ask as a guy doing lots of research on airline life...
If the company asks/tells you to do something that's a blatant violation of the contract, can't you just tell them to pound sand and count on the contract and the union to back you up and protect your job?
Perhaps that's easier said than done. But what's the point of a contract if it can be violated by one party at will and you can't use it to protect yourself?
If the company asks/tells you to do something that's a blatant violation of the contract, can't you just tell them to pound sand and count on the contract and the union to back you up and protect your job?
Perhaps that's easier said than done. But what's the point of a contract if it can be violated by one party at will and you can't use it to protect yourself?
01-02-2017 | 07:47 AM
#465
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
From: Pilot
How much flying the E175s get? Seems to me the 145s fly a lot more than the 175s. Does this translate to a lot of down time in the airport or less room to pickup premium lines for 175 folks?
01-02-2017 | 08:55 AM
#466
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
I'm an envoy pilot and have an honest question for all those on here constantly bashing and complaining. What specifically is "constantly" being violated in the contract? Or is it just the LTFO everyone complains about or JM?
The reason I ask is because for the years I've been here, which has been through the whole bankruptcy, merger, multiple TAs, etc, I honestly have not personally had the contract violated towards me except maybe 2 times and both of which I was able to resolve quite simply.
I understand the hard feelings going back to the TAs and base closures and all that; it affected me just as much as anyone here but at this point going forward I really am not seeing where the contract is being trashed constantly as some say. That's by no means saying it's wonderful and great and I know JM are happening and things could most certainly be much better but I honestly don't see all the things that many complain on here about.
I'm sure I'll get lit up for this by some on here but it's really an honest question and observation.
The reason I ask is because for the years I've been here, which has been through the whole bankruptcy, merger, multiple TAs, etc, I honestly have not personally had the contract violated towards me except maybe 2 times and both of which I was able to resolve quite simply.
I understand the hard feelings going back to the TAs and base closures and all that; it affected me just as much as anyone here but at this point going forward I really am not seeing where the contract is being trashed constantly as some say. That's by no means saying it's wonderful and great and I know JM are happening and things could most certainly be much better but I honestly don't see all the things that many complain on here about.
I'm sure I'll get lit up for this by some on here but it's really an honest question and observation.
01-02-2017 | 09:04 AM
#467
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
From: EMJ/CA
Absolutely.
PSA and PDT are sending, what, 3-5 pilots to AA every month? That's easy to absorb in both hiring and training. 25-30 from envoy? That's more difficult, but clearly not impossible to deal with. The potential problem that many of us see isn't stopping the flow per se, it's reducing the post-824 flow below required levels and telling the union to "fly it and grieve it" (go pound sand) when staffing remains critical as it is now. That would be on par with how the company is treating the rest of our contract.
I wish I didn't HAVE to be worried, but being outside of the 824, I am. Your post makes rational and logical sense, but I've seen enough irrational and illogical behavior by this company to convince me that common sense doesn't always win here. It was not rational to drive off 600+ pilots in bankruptcy that we were going to need over Doug Parker's need to stroke his ego about being in control. It's not logical to risk violating two federal laws in firing a union volunteer unless you're narcissistic enough to think you can get away with it. It's unethical to fire all the former American Eagle ground personnel at the outstations, replace them with Piedmont, and offer to hire them back at first year wages. When the bean counters trump logic, reason, and ethics, facts are less important in speculating the future than past behavior. Only time will tell.
PSA and PDT are sending, what, 3-5 pilots to AA every month? That's easy to absorb in both hiring and training. 25-30 from envoy? That's more difficult, but clearly not impossible to deal with. The potential problem that many of us see isn't stopping the flow per se, it's reducing the post-824 flow below required levels and telling the union to "fly it and grieve it" (go pound sand) when staffing remains critical as it is now. That would be on par with how the company is treating the rest of our contract.
I wish I didn't HAVE to be worried, but being outside of the 824, I am. Your post makes rational and logical sense, but I've seen enough irrational and illogical behavior by this company to convince me that common sense doesn't always win here. It was not rational to drive off 600+ pilots in bankruptcy that we were going to need over Doug Parker's need to stroke his ego about being in control. It's not logical to risk violating two federal laws in firing a union volunteer unless you're narcissistic enough to think you can get away with it. It's unethical to fire all the former American Eagle ground personnel at the outstations, replace them with Piedmont, and offer to hire them back at first year wages. When the bean counters trump logic, reason, and ethics, facts are less important in speculating the future than past behavior. Only time will tell.
Spot on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
01-02-2017 | 10:05 AM
#468
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Reserve Turnback, Section 12. E. 1
A reserve pilot who has been credited with less than sixty (60) hours in the contractual month may be assigned additional flying prior to calling out reserves from home and prior to the awarding of reserve proffers except that such a reserve may only perform additional flying in accordance with this paragraph once per flight sequence. Such additional flying may include multiple legs or an overnight(s), after which such pilot will be released to rest.
Violated on a daily basis, even though it's in black and white.
LTFO
Need I say more? For the uninformed...the company assigned open flying to low-time FO's to comply with the ATP requirements. As a consequence, new-hire FO's were getting 90 hour lines while those senior to them were forced to sit standby. "Fly it and grieve it" is what these senior pilots who now sat upwards of 6-months on standby were told to do, or face termination.
Junior Man
The company now considers it legal to junior man you multiple days out with other reserves available because they anticipate the need to.
The company now considers it legal to junior man you into multiple days. You were on for 4-days? Now you just got junior manned to work 6 days total. We are allowed 2-junior man's per month or 12 total, but the company is "grouping" JM events as one so they don't count against the total.
You want that return day? Not going to happen. So basically plan on having 8-days off. Taking into account that pre-assigned 4AM RAP on reserve, if you commute you essentially just get to come home to re-pack your bags before heading out on the road again. The only status this doesn't affect too bad right now are CRJ CA's...all others are experiencing it on a daily basis.
While not all of the above directly affect me, I am aware of what is going on. I don't know who you are, nor do I care, but the above is reality. If you think I am spewing "hate and vitriol" for saying the truth of what certain managers have turned this place into, then so be it.
01-02-2017 | 10:38 AM
#469
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
False. Look back at my previous posts and you will see I am not some envoy hater, nor a cheerleader. I tell it like it is.
Reserve Turnback, Section 12. E. 1
A reserve pilot who has been credited with less than sixty (60) hours in the contractual month may be assigned additional flying prior to calling out reserves from home and prior to the awarding of reserve proffers except that such a reserve may only perform additional flying in accordance with this paragraph once per flight sequence. Such additional flying may include multiple legs or an overnight(s), after which such pilot will be released to rest.
Violated on a daily basis, even though it's in black and white.
LTFO
Need I say more? For the uninformed...the company assigned open flying to low-time FO's to comply with the ATP requirements. As a consequence, new-hire FO's were getting 90 hour lines while those senior to them were forced to sit standby. "Fly it and grieve it" is what these senior pilots who now sat upwards of 6-months on standby were told to do, or face termination.
Junior Man
The company now considers it legal to junior man you multiple days out with other reserves available because they anticipate the need to.
The company now considers it legal to junior man you into multiple days. You were on for 4-days? Now you just got junior manned to work 6 days total. We are allowed 2-junior man's per month or 12 total, but the company is "grouping" JM events as one so they don't count against the total.
You want that return day? Not going to happen. So basically plan on having 8-days off. Taking into account that pre-assigned 4AM RAP on reserve, if you commute you essentially just get to come home to re-pack your bags before heading out on the road again. The only status this doesn't affect too bad right now are CRJ CA's...all others are experiencing it on a daily basis.
While not all of the above directly affect me, I am aware of what is going on. I don't know who you are, nor do I care, but the above is reality. If you think I am spewing "hate and vitriol" for saying the truth of what certain managers have turned this place into, then so be it.
Reserve Turnback, Section 12. E. 1
A reserve pilot who has been credited with less than sixty (60) hours in the contractual month may be assigned additional flying prior to calling out reserves from home and prior to the awarding of reserve proffers except that such a reserve may only perform additional flying in accordance with this paragraph once per flight sequence. Such additional flying may include multiple legs or an overnight(s), after which such pilot will be released to rest.
Violated on a daily basis, even though it's in black and white.
LTFO
Need I say more? For the uninformed...the company assigned open flying to low-time FO's to comply with the ATP requirements. As a consequence, new-hire FO's were getting 90 hour lines while those senior to them were forced to sit standby. "Fly it and grieve it" is what these senior pilots who now sat upwards of 6-months on standby were told to do, or face termination.
Junior Man
The company now considers it legal to junior man you multiple days out with other reserves available because they anticipate the need to.
The company now considers it legal to junior man you into multiple days. You were on for 4-days? Now you just got junior manned to work 6 days total. We are allowed 2-junior man's per month or 12 total, but the company is "grouping" JM events as one so they don't count against the total.
You want that return day? Not going to happen. So basically plan on having 8-days off. Taking into account that pre-assigned 4AM RAP on reserve, if you commute you essentially just get to come home to re-pack your bags before heading out on the road again. The only status this doesn't affect too bad right now are CRJ CA's...all others are experiencing it on a daily basis.
While not all of the above directly affect me, I am aware of what is going on. I don't know who you are, nor do I care, but the above is reality. If you think I am spewing "hate and vitriol" for saying the truth of what certain managers have turned this place into, then so be it.
01-02-2017 | 11:59 AM
#470
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
You chose to sell yourself short by going to Allegiant, and guess what? I could care less.
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