FXLAX

Thanks for the clarification. My understanding on one of the issues with 4a2b is that it didn’t have “snap back” language back then. I suppose they could have snap back language for pay rates or anything else for that matter. And I’m pretty sure they do. Which means that that snap back language is imperative. In our case, we have that language already in place so in that sense I agree with you that it isn’t hard to get it back since it already exist.

Noworkallplay

4a2c was the addition in 2015. It evens the playing field and doesn't allow a huge credit difference in each seat or fleet. It also restricts picking up trips.

I cant believe United is about to divide the group into 1/3s

pinseeker

You obviously either haven't read, or have the ability to comprehend 4a2c. What you stated simply isn't true.

Check6Viper

How does 4.A.2.c not even the playing field? It appears to limit 85% of lines to a 13 credit hour spread and 95% of the lines to a 16 credit hour spread system wide.

Noworkallplay

You are exactly correct. However this is an Internet forum so we must tell lies and complain.

pinseeker

First, it doesn't include bid packs with less than 100 pilots. So, ANC, IND, LAX, CGN, and HKG are all excluded. Then you take the 5% that are allowed to be more than 16 hours, and you have around 700 pilots that have no restriction. If you take out the 85% that are limited to a 13 hour spread, you have almost 1200 pilots that can have 16 hours or more in monthly BLG even before you add in carry over. That doesn't sound like a very even playing field to me. Would you think it was even if you were making 60 hours BLG while another pilot was consistently make 76 hours or more BLG?

Hey NoWork, maybe you could be on one of those bid packs that gets the extra flying since you like to brag about your $320K plus paycheck your third year. You obviously like to pick up as much extra flying as you can. I doubt that will ever change regardless of the environment we are in.

rvfanatic

We’ve had several displacements at UAL to get us ready to furlough next month. Basically, if the TA is approved, top 2/3 displacements are cancelled and guys are pay protected to their original seat. Bottom 1/3 guys will still be displaced.

We’re roughly looking at 10% pay/hours cut top 1/3, 20% middle and 50% bottom 1/3 (because it’s better than 0% and furloughed goes the logic).

Flying Boxes

I was junior during 4A2B. pre cursor was the age change to 65 and company cancelled recent upgrade bid and re-accomplished it to allow over 65 pilots back to left seats Dec 07- Jan 08. Junior pilots went back about ~150-200 seniority numbers out of ~ 4,700 pilots. (this is master seniority list so it affected individual aircraft differently) So really the first displacement. Company then used several displacements in summer/fall of 2008 to put most of the excess pilots in the lowest paying seats. Contract did not allow mgt to put pilots where they wanted them easily in one bid. Wide body back to 727 for lowest pay. IRC the union agreed to a wider spread between lines but I don't remember if it was changed to 13 hours like current spread or to something greater. Then most 727 lines were about ~55 hours a month IRC. I also don't remember if the spread was between lines in an aircraft or between aircraft. it sucked, schedules sucked and reserves still had to work 15/19 day months for those few hours of pay! (sucked to be commuting for that pay with same number of reserve days)

Lesson learned from FedEx is it was good to save junior pilots (company couldn't train pilots fast enough to really furlough cost effectively many will say meaning mgt really just saved money) but need ensure all pilots work less days and have clear exit language! Also there was much angst between pilots because the pay was still very wide spread. But we didn't codify it by dividing seniority list into thirds either.

Noworkallplay

The Jr guys are currently making 15 hours less a month than the senior guys. The jr guys are currently working more days for the same pay. 4.a.2.c adds hard limits that previously were not in place. Go look at the bid pack splits. Plus 4.a.2.c added a restriction on no volunteer flying. It also added language for the negotiations of early retirement packages and voluntary leaves. It was definitely a big upgrade.

pinseeker

While I agree that the language now is better than 2006, that still doesn't negate the facts that I posted. Your response is again false and misleading.

Maybe your name should be NoClueAllDay!